User talk:David Hoffman

Greetings. Feel free to add a comment to any existing subject or make a new comment on my talk page. I would prefer if you add comments at the bottom of any given thread. As a matter of courtesy to me, please do not delete any old comments. To modify your own, just strikethrough and append new thoughts.

You can discuss specific articles here, especially for personal rather than content concerns. Otherwise, let's discuss it on the applicable talk page.

You also are invited to send me an email as you wish.

Welcome!

Tasks: start a new article • add basic, wanted or requested articles • add definitions • add metadata • edit new pages

Welcome to the Citizendium! We hope you will contribute boldly and well. Here are pointers for a quick start, and see Getting Started for other helpful "startup" links, our help system and CZ:Home for the top menu of community pages. You can test out editing in the sandbox if you'd like. If you need help to get going, the forum is one option. That's also where we discuss policy and proposals. You can ask any user or the editors for help, too. Just put a note on their "talk" page. Again, welcome and have fun! -- Stephen Ewen 13:44, 10 May 2007 (CDT)

A few words about workgroups

We are indeed happy to have you in the community. We would also like to introduce you to Citizendium's Workgroups and encourage you to--

1. Join a workgroup if you haven't already
2. Help us add workgroup category tags to articles, especially any articles you create
3. Help us spread the word about workgroups within the CZ community

What are workgroups? To answer that question, I'd like to give you a quick tour.

• Start by checking the various workgroups we have at CZ: List of Workgroups. This link can also be found in the left navigation-bar in the 2nd box (Project Pages), 3rd link in that box (Workgroups). The Workgroup Home(s) can be found in the 2nd column in the List of Workgroups.

• For the purposes of this tour, please take a look at the Biology Workgroup Home: CZ:Biology_Workgroup.
• Now let's take a look at the first table on the Biology Workgroup Home (below).

Workgroups are no longer used for group communications, but they still are used to group articles into fields of interest. Each article is assigned to 1-3 Workgroups via the article's Metadata.

Biology article	All articles (1,623)	To Approve (0)	Editors: active (1) / inactive (46) and Authors: active (441) / inactive (0)	Workgroup Discussion
	Recent changes	Citable Articles (25)
		Subgroups (12.5)

Checklist-generated categories: Underlinked (753) Cat Check (506) Cleanup (0) Subpage categories: Definitions (1,562) Related Articles (1,441 to check 710) Bibliography (400) External Links (447) Gallery (30) Video (33)

Missing subpage categories: Definitions (34) Related Articles (15) Bibliography (32) External Links (33) Article statuses: 104 Developed (status=1) 674 Developing (status=2) 699 Stub (status=3) 104 External (status=4) 128 Advanced (status 0-1) 802 Nonstub (status 0-2) 1,501 Internal (status 0-3)

• In the 2nd column, find the link that says, "all articles," which lists all articles that users have placed [[Category:Biology Workgroup]] at the bottom of their articles.
• Now click on the "recent changes" link underneath the "all articles" in the 2nd column in the top table. This lists all recent changes in articles that have been tagged [[Category:Biology Workgroup]]. In one glance, you can view all the changes that happened while you were away! Feel free to click on all the links to get an idea how the information for your workgroup is organized. All these lists are populated by articles that have the categories properly placed at the bottom of their pages.

This completes your virtual-tour of CZ workgroups. I hope you can see the usefulness of having all articles in Citizendium tagged properly with your Workgroup categories. Make sure to add the Workgroup category labels to your new articles. This is an important part of the Approval process.

Be sure to join a workgroup and take part in this opportunity to collaborate with others who have similar interests as you. You can see what others are working on in the Workgroup recent changes and join in! Remember, we want you to be bold in your contributions at Citizendium.

To add yourself to a workgroup, use the form [[Category:Education Authors|Smith, Bob]], etc., and add it to your user page. Substitute the proper work group for "Education" in the example, and your name-Last, First for the names in the example.

Do not add yourself to the Editors list, only CZ staff add "Editors" to user pages after proper review of applications is completed. To apply to become an editor, please see Editor Application Review Procedure.

To add a workgroup category tag to an article, use the form [[Category:Education Workgroup]] at the bottom of the article. Substitute in the proper workgroup for "Education" in the example.

If you are from Wikipedia originally, you may want to check out this article:

• Introduction to CZ for Wikipedians

-- Stephen Ewen 13:44, 10 May 2007 (CDT)

Imports

You should stop importing and start improving. Then import more.  ;-) Stephen Ewen 18:56, 10 May 2007 (CDT)

Steve -- yes, I understand this approach. Perhaps you could comment on my "strategy." But don't worry, I'll only import a few more sections that I think are part of the major core. David Hoffman 18:56, 10 May 2007 (CDT)

See CZ:Article_Deletion_Policy, first point. To change policy, do feel free to start a discussion at http://forum.citizendium.org/ . ---Stephen Ewen 18:59, 10 May 2007 (CDT)

Sure, that's fair (and I noticed something along those lines before). I've started to make revisions to what I've imported, sometimes quite drastic ones. But I trust you and the others to know what's best for CZ. I don't think I'm trying to change a policy, am I? Well, that's not my intent. Maybe I should vet with you, or a veteran who could "adopt" me, before I import more. David Hoffman 19:03, 10 May 2007 (CDT)

Just don't import more, David -work on what you've got. What's happened again and again is that somebody becomes a new citizen, they import loads of stuff from wikipeida, meaning to eventually change it, or thinking some one else will, but nobody does and then somebody ends up having to go through the wiki and delete it all a couple of weeks from now. It is policy here that we are NOT a mirror of Wikipedia, and so articles that are substantially the same WILL be deleted. Work on what you have already imported,and when you have,and they are now legitimate CZ articles they will not be deleted, then import more (if you want). But wait-

I'm splitting your comment into another thread, hope you don't mind... David Hoffman 21:14, 10 May 2007 (CDT)

I'm pro using Wikipedia (WP) information on Citizendium (CZ) and then improving it. I personally see nothing wrong with your strategy. I'm pro that we adopt a complete GFDL license too. You'll notice that the people telling you to stop importing are anti one GFDL license (but don't hold me to that). keep writing and improving! -Tom Kelly (Talk) 21:19, 10 May 2007 (CDT)

One person telling him to stop importing is the Assistant Chief Constable. As him, I am pro follow the policies, or work within proper channels to change them. ---Stephen Ewen 23:52, 10 May 2007 (CDT)

Just how many policies did assistant chief constable write? We wish were bigger and had separation of powers and more opinions speaking out on these matters. I get the feeling there are only a few loud voices on each side of the table. Unfortunately, the license issue is huge. We need more people like David, giving their opinion. On a side note, I can't restrain from chuckling about the implications made after you throw your title around. -Tom Kelly (Talk) 02:27, 11 May 2007 (CDT)

The implication in your post, Tom, which is completely unfounded, is that I am asking David to stop importing and start improving out of some personal thing. The reason for throwing my title around, something I have never done before, is to dispel that false notion and to dispel your implication that I am pushing an opinion about the matter rather than speaking as one who does have a responsibility to uphold all Citizendium policies within constabulary purvey. The policy I am upholding is CZ:How to convert Wikipedia articles to Citizendium articles, written by Dr. Sanger (as you can see in its history).

No constables have written CZ policies, except the Chief Constable who wrote the one on acronyms, and although constables certainly discuss how to apply policies (for example, would your above post be in violation of CZ:Professionalism?) True, I wrote much of CZ:Introduction to CZ for Wikipedians, but none of the policies contained therein. Oh, and I did write Help:Images#Documenting_free_content_releases_and_images_by_permission, but that's certainly much more of a help topic than policy.

Obviously, I am more than fine with people voicing their views on policies, both current ones and future ones, and all CZ members, including myself, are invited to do so. That's why I helped David know how to best go about that.

I would appreciate if you would please stop doing what you are doing here. Forums is the place to discuss CZ policies, not a new contributor's talk page. And there is also on the matter of licensing CZ:Summaries of policy arguments, which you are already well-aware of, having been clearly among the most vocal of anyone on those pages.

Stephen Ewen 03:59, 11 May 2007 (CDT)

Glad to get feedback from either side of the aisle. As a newcomer, it's hard to know the interpretive range of any given CZ policy. Let me be clear that I will definitely revise Wikipedian texts, and no, not in a shy way. Above, I try to be transparent about my incoming assumptions and strategy. I am certainly willing to learn and adjust as I get accustomed to CZ's policies and community. David Hoffman 21:34, 10 May 2007 (CDT) PS I don't have a position yet on licensing, but it is clear to me that Wikipedia has, besides the flotsam, much useful content.

To begin with, assume that the most conservative/least permissive interpretation, and then simply ask for clarification/interpretation about a particular case. Steve is absolutely correct about what the policy says. There has been, so far, only one sort of situation in which we have tolerated mass importation of Wikipedia articles, and that is where (1) a person wrote virtually all of those articles, and (2) the person wants to start maintaining those articles here, and is committed to improving them here. Simply uploading and making few changes to articles you happen to be interested in is strongly frowned upon, because CZ is not a mirror of Wikipedia. Such activity basically reduces the value of CZ and discourages people from doing better work. This is also why our Article Deletion Policy specifies that we may delete articles uploaded from Wikipedia that have not been significantly changed.

Also, bear in mind that general policies on CZ are not decided by "consensus" on talk pages. You can state your opinion of what you think the policy ought to be, of course, but please don't imply that the policy is anything other than it is. --Larry Sanger 08:38, 11 May 2007 (CDT)

Jewish law on family purity

I have a "jewish question" for you (very very bad joke which is actually a query prompted in the most respectful way) which perhaps you can answer first - I don't know if you know the traditional Jewish law- but for Natural Family Planning I wanted to go through how the very orthodox rules for touching between husband and wife increase the chances of pregnancy in that culture, but I have forgotten exactly how it works- I think its 7 days after last visible blood- and then mikvah? I also do not know the history of that tradition, how it started, which passages in which books are referred to? I'd like to include this in a scholarly fashion for that article. In any event, no "sin of Onan" means high sperm count, timing of togetherness after abstinence means likely intercourse at time of ovulation, and I would like to refer to this all properly. Can you help? Nancy Sculerati 19:23, 10 May 2007 (CDT)

The rules of niddah are quite complicated. I think the biblical grounds are found primarily in (approx) Lev. 15:19-30, 18:19, 20:18 and 12:1-8. But the rules are worked through in a Talmudic tractate and so forth. Let me refer you to a site written for health professionals (i.e., you): Nishmat's intro to the laws of niddah. If that's insufficient, here's a good set of resources. Or here if you need to see every possible detail. Incidentally, I located the above w/o Wikipedia. But now glancing at Wikipedia, it looks like a terrific article. Clearly written with both expertise and some degree of cooperation betw Orthodox and Conservative Jews. Really, I'd recommend you look there. (Indeed, I caught an error in my Bible verse numbers above.) Or maybe you could import it here and CZ-ize it...  ;->

Anyways, let me know if this is helpful or if I might assist you, e.g. in interpreting these resources. David Hoffman 21:14, 10 May 2007 (CDT)

P.S. How strong are the sources that claim that niddah enhances fertility?

Thanks so much. Nancy Sculerati 21:35, 10 May 2007 (CDT) The timing is right, it's the basic science- ovulation occurs 14 days before the start of menstrual bleeding (the next bleedig) , with a regular cycle of 28-30 days- and a usual number of days of bleeding, that puts sexual intercourse exactly at the right time for fertilization. Further- proscription against the "sin of Onan" (I'm probably mis-spelling his name) raises sperm counts during this time period. Finally, the separation and then togetherness is likely to make intercourse more likely to happen. On the basis of everything we know (as physicians) of the human reproductive cycle and sexual behavior- these rules are likely to result in maximal fertility - for the majority of people, anyway. Nancy Sculerati 00:02, 11 May 2007 (CDT)

Nancy, you're making a fair, logical inference. But there are other factors that shape sexual activity. Plus, there's the difference between theory and the lived cultural practice. For instance, how often to couples miss the right time because of halakhic details or non-compliance? Is this an original hypothesis of yours, or are you basing it on a study? (In wikipedia, original research is discouraged. I suspect there's some data out there for you but I don't have it handy. Maybe Sered or Kahn) Is this an existing "social ecology" argument? David Hoffman 00:47, 11 May 2007 (CDT)

I am not saying that couples who follow traditional orthodox law have increased numbers of children, David. I am saying that these specific laws - having to do with proscription of male masturbation and the exact way that the "unclean" period is defined, are together likely to result in conception by everything we know about sperm counts, timing of ovulation, and "absence" makes the heart grow fonder, that's it. Nothing more. Nancy Sculerati 00:55, 11 May 2007 (CDT)

Signature and Categories

David, Good to see you hard at work! I noticed that your signature is missing on the talk page posts that you made on your articles. Don't forget to sign so we know who did all the work ;-) Thanks! --Matt Innis (Talk) 22:32, 10 May 2007 (CDT)

Thanks for the tip. I'm all signed up, so to speak. Feel free to CZ-ify the articles at your leisure (!?). David Hoffman 22:47, 10 May 2007 (CDT)

Much better! Thanks.. looks like you are up and going well. Are you kidding, they keep me busy as a constable :) Though if you get really overwhelmed, do give me a call on my talk page. Steve is right about importing, take your time and bringthem in one at a time and you will not have to rush so much. Have you seen the article on Islam? Robert Stockman did some good work over there, too. Looks like the religion workgroup is off to a great start. --Matt Innis (Talk) 22:52, 10 May 2007 (CDT)

Thanks, I'll check out Islam. Quick question: Where is there a policy discussion about categories/tags? They are pretty helpful for organizing data, esp on the web.David Hoffman 22:55, 10 May 2007 (CDT)

See forums and use the search function. The big picture is that articles will be organized into catalogs instead. Here is the Catalog of religions. Stephen Ewen 23:48, 10 May 2007 (CDT)

Info mgt is not my area of expertise, but catalogs and workgroups look like rather static "folders," which is find for paper but, esp for Internet search and organization, not as useful/dynamic as tags/labels/categories. It is taking me time to adjust, esp since I'm way into logical trees/folders, but I can see that Google, gmail, technorati, delicious, spotlight, etc etc are moving us to be more productive through tags. David Hoffman 23:56, 10 May 2007 (CDT)

Do feel free to bring the matter up on the Forums. It has been a good while since it has been. Stephen Ewen 23:59, 10 May 2007 (CDT)

Thanks I did find and put in a post under taxonomies. David Hoffman 00:36, 11 May 2007 (CDT)