Talk:Leptotes (orchid)/Draft

good article

Hello. I'm actually enjoying what I read here! I hope you will complete it & get it approved soon. The history of its taxonomy is interesting. (Chunbum Park 23:30, 25 February 2009 (UTC))

Oh, thank you. Actually I guess it is about to be considered done. I suppose it needs an English correction and maybe some suggestions about anything I may have forgotten. Sometimes when we are writing about things we know well we just forget to say important things that are pretty much obviuos for us but people less familiar with the subject have no idea about. Is it clear enough? Is there anything missing? I did not talk much about the species as every one of them will have a full article in the future. I do not mention more about culture for the same reason, furthermore culture varies a little from species to species; I'll treat higher classification in depht in Laeliinae article; and Phylogeny is not 100% stable as yet. Oh, yes I will add some extra photos to the article. Cheers, Dalton Holland Baptista 00:09, 26 February 2009 (UTC)

intro

I just went through the intro and I'm not sure if "candies aromatizers" is correct. Do you mean "candies and aromatizers"? Chris Day 03:25, 26 February 2009 (UTC)

I mean it is used as flavoring (I guess this is the right word, hehe, like vanilla). Dalton Holland Baptista 03:56, 26 February 2009 (UTC)

That makes more sense, I thought I might be on the wrong track. Chris Day 04:01, 26 February 2009 (UTC)

In the distribution section, I was not sure what you meant by "The distribution of one species is only an assumption". Chris Day 03:40, 26 February 2009 (UTC)

OK, Leptotes mogyensis was described solely based on a plant found under culture in the USA. Comparing this plant with the large list of varieties Krakowizer mentioned in a lecture at Círculo Paulista de Orquidófilos, in 1954, Christenson concluded it matched a variety Krakowizer found at Mogy das Cruzes, thus Christenson just implies it is from there, although no collection record does indeed exist. Dalton Holland Baptista 03:56, 26 February 2009 (UTC)

OK, now I understand, I'll try and capture that into a short sentence. Chris Day 04:01, 26 February 2009 (UTC)

I'm unfamiliar with the term "almost imperceptibly prolongate". Could you spell this out a bit more? Chris Day 06:49, 26 February 2009 (UTC)

Sure, its pseudobulbs are abbreviated, cylindrical about the same diameter of the leaves, which are also cylindrical, therefore the place where one ends and another starts are not easity diferentiated because they are very alike. One has to look for the joint to see it, it is not clearly marked. - diferent from a large number of orchids where you have a very clear pseudobulb that looks like with a potatoe and then a completely diferent flat petiolated leave starting over its top. Dalton Holland Baptista 13:38, 26 February 2009 (UTC)

Floral diagram

Excellent, great choice, loved it! Dalton Holland Baptista 18:41, 26 February 2009 (UTC)

Doubt

• Quote: "This new species was included in Célestin Alfred Cogniaux's revision of Brazilian orchid species, published 1903, but in doing so he was partly ignoring the variability within the Leptotes species. At the time Cogniaux published his book he had not had ..."
• Question: is it clear enough in this sentence that Cogniaux was not "aware of" and not that he was "intentionaly ignoring"? Dalton Holland Baptista 06:49, 28 February 2009 (UTC)

Actually this was one bit where I could not make a call. I added "partly" since i thought he was probably not actively ignoring it. Ignorance is bliss as they say. I would be happy to remove ignore altogether. It could be written as: "This new species was included in Célestin Alfred Cogniaux's revision of Brazilian orchid species, published 1903, but in doing so he was unaware of the variability within the Leptotes species. At the time Cogniaux published his book he had not had ...'' Chris Day 07:09, 28 February 2009 (UTC)

That's it! Dalton Holland Baptista 07:19, 28 February 2009 (UTC)

Leptotes tenuis and L. pauloensis

Despite L. tenuis is the most rare one, it was the firts to be discovered. When Leptotes pauloensis was described it mentioned the diferences of color and a slight difference on the callus present on the labellum. Today color variation alone usually is not regarded as enough to stablish a new species, and maybe not even a subspecies. Because these Leptotes species are hard to find and because the herbarium dried material loose information (like the callus exact shape), many taxonomists were in doubt. BTW, even today that we know well these species, many think it is better if they were classified as a complex of a variable superspecies, rather than three easily distinct species. Dalton Holland Baptista 19:14, 1 March 2009 (UTC)

Recent species

i just edited the last few paragraphs in the taxonimic section. I am left wondering if L. harryphillipsii and L. mogyensis are universally agreed upon as new species or is this controversial? i wonder if there is a recent reference discussing this issue? Lastly, Leptotes vellozicola seems to get a very short paragraph at the end, especially given it is described as quite distinct to the others. This left me thinking it might even be a different genus? A description of these difference might be useful as well as an clarifications as to why it is considered a Leptote. Possibly I have over-interpreted some of the original text? Chris Day 19:16, 1 March 2009 (UTC)

[edit clash] I just saw your new comments above. That helps clarify the situation a bit more. Chris Day 19:18, 1 March 2009 (UTC)

[another edit clash]

You are right about the the status of L. mogyensis and L. harryphillipsii they are not widely accepted by Brazilian taxonomists, maybe because we have never seen the first and the second is just regarded as a variety of L. pauloensis. However I would say this is just a general believe and nothing has been published disprooving their acceptance thus I didn't want to include what might be considered more a general opinion than a fact in the article. There are so many cases an unknown species proved to be a good one after some years. Although I guess the general feeling is implied as you guessed very well.

Regarding L. vellozicola, it sure is a Leptotes species. It seems to be that different not because of its absolutely differences but because some of the other ones are very confusing. I have a photo of it Cássio van den Berg sent me allowing me to publish it, although, as he is my friend I did not asked for a declaration saing that I might do so. It was clear enough because I asked him exactlly for that purpose. If you think uploading it here is fine I'll do it, otherwise we may wait for some plant to show up for me to shot or someone else upload one. Dalton Holland Baptista 19:30, 1 March 2009 (UTC)

Chris, as it seems species articles will take a while to be writen we might add to Leptotes vellozicola that it is the species which takes the highest amount of sunlight because it is epiphytic on Vellozia species, which have very few leaves, and also that it lives in a much dryer area than all other species. Dalton Holland Baptista 19:36, 1 March 2009 (UTC)

Approved article?

Now, do you think this is good enough to be considered an approved article? If you do, we might go on with the proccess, which is new to me, and see what happens. Dalton Holland Baptista 19:46, 1 March 2009 (UTC)

Certainly close. The process involves adding a url of the version for approval to the metadata page along with an approval date and an editors name who is proposing the approval. Three biology editors need to approve or one uninvolved biology editor. In this case, if you put it up for approval two other editors would then sign up in agreement.

As to the photo from your friend. If he is in agreement to release it to CZ, under a creative commons license, then that would be really good for the gallery. Even the article. Chris Day 19:51, 1 March 2009 (UTC)

Well Chris, I have many, many photos from friends I gathered for the last years, as I meet them I'll ask them to write something allowing me to upload them to CZ in particular. Probably it is better this way. They allowed me to publish them on my website and a on a CD but nothing was said about licensing it. I doubt they might concearn about this as they do not have any intention of using them to make any money, but it is better to ask them anyway. I'll upload them thereafter. I have photos of all species from friends, even the one used in the original publication of L. mogyensis. Will work on that. Dalton Holland Baptista 20:04, 1 March 2009 (UTC)

Dalton, I see that you set the article to be approved in just a few days (March 4). That is probably too soon. Since you have been the primary author of the article, you will need two other biology editors to also sponsor the article before the approval can be made official.

You've done a great job on the article itself, so it will probably be pretty easy to get other biology editors to sign off after asking a few questions or making minor comments. But March 4 is probably too soon to expect them to respond. Usually, editors set the final approval date around a week in the future, sometimes two weeks. --Joe Quick 21:36, 1 March 2009 (UTC)

Actually I added that time frame. I agree we might want to add some extra time. Chris Day 21:53, 1 March 2009 (UTC)

Thank you Joe, I have to say Chris is responsible for the English revision tho. Thanks a lot, Chris, for your comments and all the work correcting my mistakes. Well, take as much time as your need as we do not have a schedule to attend. The most important is that we make any correction needed to turn it into an article good enough to fit CZ standards of quality. Dalton Holland Baptista 23:48, 1 March 2009 (UTC)

Straw poll: Are there any other editors reading this who are ready to support approval? --Joe Quick 04:51, 2 March 2009 (UTC)

Me, but I will only come back on a more regular basis after two weeks from now. --Daniel Mietchen 22:52, 2 March 2009 (UTC)

I'm going to change the date to 20 March, if that is alright with you Dalton? This will give Daniel enough time to read it, I hope. It will also give me a little more time to copy edit. There are still some parts that i rewrote that still don't sound quite right. Chris Day 22:55, 2 March 2009 (UTC)

Oh, there is no hurry at all, whenever you think it's better. You all take your time and everyone who find any weird sentence feel free to adjust it. I'll be here for the doubts case there is any. Dalton Holland Baptista 23:05, 2 March 2009 (UTC)

I have downloaded some of the references and will go through them and the article before March 20. First brief observation: The Subtopics' definitions on the Related Articles page should not just state the reference but provide the orchid context (e.g. "An orchid species in ..., first described by ..., known for ... ." or so). The references in the definitions, by the way, could be formatted as in CZ:Direct referencing (so far an experiment of mine, far from any official policy though), i.e. by giving them their own page in the Provisional reference namespace, and linking to that page from the definition. --Daniel Mietchen 12:21, 3 March 2009 (UTC)

I am not sure I understand all suggestions, but looking for the best way to display the information is a very good thing to do because in the future this article may be used as a model to the next genera articles. I think I understand what you mean about the definitions on the list of species but then let me talk a little bit about them. When I added the list of species it was my intention just have them just as a list. The references provided, I think (despite they are references), should be regarded more like a part of the name of the species what means the author of the species description is not a reference but part of the name of the species itself, and the date, just an extra info we generally add to avoid confusion when the name has an homonimous with the same authorship (what hardly happens but it does). So if I format the species names here according to your suggestion, I still have to keep the names of the species displayed as they are (with authors) because this is standard way the International Code of Botanical Nomenclature uses. It is possible to add definitions to every species, but there are two things to consider here, the first is as because most of the species are very alike in a genus, sometimes these definitions will have be very large to state the diferences, or too short and almost the same to each one, and the second is that sometimes this list will include 200 or even more than a thousand names of species. Many times the species on the list will be confusing because they are not well defined, or are very old and have not been revised under the lights of modern taxonomy. If we had these definitions possibly the best way to display them would then be in the format of an identification key but then they would not be the definitions again. Now formating the publication info as you suggest might work but possible with some adaptations for taxonomic uses, that is, I cannot use brackets because if I do so in a species name this implies I am refering to a basyonym author and not the actual accepted name of the species. Well, I still have to think more about this and try to see what the implications are. Sure we need the definitions tho. Dalton Holland Baptista 14:57, 3 March 2009 (UTC)

Well I'm a newbie so let me ask something. Leptotes is a small genus and I know all the species, now, let's suppose I am writing and article about a genus of 300 species and I have this list of species (that hopefully one day will have their own articles). Should I write a definition to each of them? This will be a huge task because many times this information is not easyly available anywhere. So I ask, should the species definitions be regarded as an really important item to include? I agree having them is excellent but some orchid species are so confusing that reviewing them all (with Phylogeny) usually are regarded as good subject to Ph.D. thesis today. Furthermore, species definitions sit a little bit aside the genus article scope itself for the genus article intention is giving a good input about the genus. Maybe trying to identify each species of a genus possibly is setting the standards too high for the article. In small genera articles it is a good thing to do, but large ones will make the article species lists as long as a book. Dalton Holland Baptista 15:36, 3 March 2009 (UTC)