Talk:Roast turkey: Difference between revisions

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imported>Mary Ash
imported>Aleta Curry
(Del; no need for petulance, everybody here can read.)
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::I '''strongly''' disagree. The facts were researched and written by me. There is no plagiarism involved and I am sorry you feel that I would commit such a serious sin of poor writing.[[User:Mary Ash|Mary Ash]] 16:31, 17 October 2010 (UTC)
::I '''strongly''' disagree. The facts were researched and written by me. There is no plagiarism involved and I am sorry you feel that I would commit such a serious sin of poor writing.[[User:Mary Ash|Mary Ash]] 16:31, 17 October 2010 (UTC)
:::On re-reading I see you do not accept NPR or the turkey growers in Minnesota as reliable sources. I suspect both sources would know a thing about history and turkeys.[[User:Mary Ash|Mary Ash]] 16:38, 17 October 2010 (UTC)
:::On re-reading I see you do not accept NPR or the turkey growers in Minnesota as reliable sources. I suspect both sources would know a thing about history and turkeys.[[User:Mary Ash|Mary Ash]] 16:38, 17 October 2010 (UTC)
== Turkey Factoids ==
 
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==Turkey Factoids==
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*[[King Henry VIII]] was the first British king to eat turkey. He made it fashionable to eat turkey at [[Christmas]] in England where it's still popular today.<ref name="University of Illinois Extension">{{cite web |url=http://urbanext.illinois.edu/turkey/turkey_facts.cfm |title=Turkey for the Holidays |accessdate=2010-10-14}}</ref> '''Reference University of Illinois'''
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*English turkeys were herded to market and wore booties to protect their feet. In the United States turkeys were walked to market too. It is unclear if the American turkeys wore booties.<ref name="University of Illinois Extension">{{cite web |url=http://urbanext.illinois.edu/turkey/turkey_facts.cfm |title=Turkey for the Holidays |accessdate=2010-10-14}}</ref>'''University of Illinois'''
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*Wild turkeys spend their nights in trees while domestic turkeys can not fly.<ref name="University of Illinois Extension">{{cite web |url=http://urbanext.illinois.edu/turkey/turkey_facts.cfm |title=Turkey for the Holidays |accessdate=2010-10-14}}</ref>'''University of Illinois'''
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*Since 1947 the United States president has received two turkeys from the [[National Turkey Federation]]. The turkeys are never eaten as they receive a presidential pardon.'''National Turkey Federation'''
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*Israelis eat the most turkeys as they consume 28 pounds of turkey per person per year.<ref name="University of Illinois Extension">{{cite web |url=http://urbanext.illinois.edu/turkey/turkey_facts.cfm |title=Turkey for the Holidays |accessdate=2010-10-14}}</ref>'''University of Illinois'''
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*Ben Franklin wrote the turkey should be the national USA bird.<ref name="University of Illinois Extension">{{cite web |url=http://urbanext.illinois.edu/turkey/turkey_facts.cfm |title=Turkey for the Holidays |accessdate=2010-10-14}}</ref>'''University of Illinois'''
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*[[Thanksgiving]] is when most turkeys are eaten. The National Turkey Federation (NTF) estimates that approximately 45 million turkeys are gobbled up at Thanksgiving followed by 22 million at [[Christmas]], and 19 million at [[Easter]].<ref name="Minnesota Turkey">{{cite web |url=http://www.minnesotaturkey.com/tips-and-recipes/ |title=Learn More About Turkey |accessdate=2010-10-14}}</ref>
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*[[June]] is [[National Turkey Lovers Month]].<ref name="Minnesota Turkey">{{cite web |url=http://www.minnesotaturkey.com/tips-and-recipes/ |title=Learn More About Turkey |accessdate=2010-10-14}}</ref>'''Minnesota Turkey Growers'''
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*Tom turkeys gobble while hen turkeys cluck. The tom is the male and the hen is the female.<ref name="Minnesota Turkey">{{cite web |url=http://www.minnesotaturkey.com/tips-and-recipes/ |title=Learn More About Turkey |accessdate=2010-10-14}}</ref>'''Minnesota Turkey Growers'''
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*President [[Abraham Lincoln]] proclaimed Thanksgiving a national holiday in 1863. In 1939, President [[Franklin Roosevelt]] moved Thanksgiving Day forward one week.<ref name="Minnesota Turkey">{{cite web |url=http://www.minnesotaturkey.com/tips-and-recipes/ |title=Learn More About Turkey |accessdate=2010-10-14}}</ref>'''Minnesota Turkey Growers'''
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*[[Food Network]] chef [[Alton Brown]] says stuffing is what goes inside the turkey while dressing is what's baked in a casserole dish. He also recommends preparing the dressing.<ref name="Serious Eats">{{cite web |url=http://www.seriouseats.com/2009/11/alton-brown-says-no-to-stuffing-the-turkey-dressing-thanksgiving.html |title=Alton Brown Says No to Stuffing the Turkey |accessdate=2010-10-14}}</ref>
'''Serious Eats.com'''
==References==
==References==

Revision as of 16:35, 17 October 2010

This article is developing and not approved.
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 Definition:  The preparation of a whole bird as a meal for a large group of people, frequently at festive occasions such as Christmas-time or various holidays. [d] [e]
Checklist and Archives
 Workgroup category:  Food Science [Editors asked to check categories]
 Talk Archive:  1, 2  English language variant:  American English
1, 2






Move to subpage

Requesting Page Deletion

Requesting page deletion as article does not fit Citizendium standards. Mary Ash 04:15, 16 October 2010 (UTC)

Impetuous; don't delete - you worked hard on the content, which should be integrated elsewhere. Aleta Curry 05:08, 16 October 2010 (UTC)
That didn't work with Marian apparitions, and I hope it won't work here. The information just needs to be put in the right place, not deleted. David Finn 06:36, 16 October 2010 (UTC)
Mary, you should already know that requesting to delete this page is not what is to be done. Thus I have moved the page to the /Recipes subpage.
You have put much effort into this page and collected material, but it needs more work to shape it into a good recipes page. So, please, do not just leave it behind but continue to work on it (with the help of the community). You may take your time, of course -- there is no deadline to meet!
--Peter Schmitt 08:59, 16 October 2010 (UTC)
No, Peter I did not know that an author could request a page deletion. How do you request a page be deleted? I plan no more work on this article as it does not meet Citizendium standards. The one thing I learned in life, so far, is to know when to cut your losses. I am moving onto to other articles to write. Again, how do you request a page deletion? I searched Citizendium and could find nothing to enlighten me on this subject. Thanks!Mary Ash 14:39, 16 October 2010 (UTC)
Perhaps you should re-read what Peter has written - he said requesting page deletion was not what is to be done.
Oh, and if you want to know how to request deletion of a page, ask the person who placed the speedy delete tag on the article. Speedy delete tags are how you do it. David Finn 14:56, 16 October 2010 (UTC)
David I AM the person who requested the speedy delete and it was refused.Mary Ash 15:05, 16 October 2010 (UTC)

(undent) In any event, the page deletion criteria for non-Editors are restricted to those that are listed for Constables on their own authority. Editors have more, but still restricted categories. Given the number of people who have worked on content here, it is not plausible to say the article is not appropriate for Citizendium. It is being reworked, however, into a style more consistent with that of other food articles on Citizendium. Howard C. Berkowitz 20:54, 16 October 2010 (UTC)

Title Change to Roast turkey

Requesting title change to Roast turkey. The current title is inaccurate as roast turkey is eaten worldwide. As shown the British have been eating roast turkey back in the time of King Henry VIII and is still eaten today. The directions for preparing a roast turkey could be used by anyone, in any country, at any time, especially since the metric and Gas Mark measurements are now included.Mary Ash 14:52, 16 October 2010 (UTC)

Section move needed

Turkey factoids should be at turkey (bird). The section also needs to be reviewed as people have time and better sources cited as the one used is very general. Aleta Curry 20:37, 16 October 2010 (UTC)

Fair enough. I'll move them. My opinions about factoids are mixed, but I didn't want to lose them and they were rather lonely on the recipes page. Howard C. Berkowitz 20:54, 16 October 2010 (UTC)
Oops! Cross post. Howard, I've moved them, see below. Aleta Curry 20:59, 16 October 2010 (UTC)

'Turkey Factoids' Moved to domestic turkey

I've moved this section to the stub domestic turkey. I had started that without metadata deliberately, pending the conclusion of the great turkey debates. So, that can very easily be cut/moved/deleted/pasted somewhere else, whatever is finally decided. I'm not making any determinations what that should be, only that the factoids shouldn't be at roast turkey. Aleta Curry 20:54, 16 October 2010 (UTC)

text box

Howard, I dunno what you're trying to do, or how to fix it. So let's leave the quotation as it is until we find a guru who can do it. Thanks.Hayford Peirce 21:31, 16 October 2010 (UTC)

OK, I'll comment it out for now and make it a quotation. It didn't belong as a major subhead. Howard C. Berkowitz 21:34, 16 October 2010 (UTC)
Well, it sure doesn't belong where you have stuck it now, either, right in the middle of something else entirely, with absolutely no explanation of what it's doing there. Hayford Peirce 21:50, 16 October 2010 (UTC)
I think it's very much in context. It makes a transition from the small turkeys of the past to the industrial of today.
As a matter of personal style, while I'm fine with lighthearted content, headers are for information indexing or retrieval. Put the lighthearted into the body of text, into a text box (probably preferred) or quotation when it is a quotation. Howard C. Berkowitz 22:01, 16 October 2010 (UTC)

Turkey and all that

I try to recapitulate:

  1. Mary creates Roast turkey -- a how-to page
Yes
  1. Hayford considers the page as ethnocentric and moves it to Roast turkey (American) -- obviously he considers such a page title as justified
Yes. If you had read the article in question, you would have agreed 100%. It was purely about American turkeys, holidays, and preparation, with a lot of material about American foods. It made perfect sense to move it to its new name.
  1. Mary adds more recipes
Yes.
  1. The talk page shows: most agree that this belongs on a subpage
Yes.
  1. Mary requests to delete both the page and the talk page
Yes.
  1. I (and others) point out that deleting is not justified
Yes.
  1. I move the page to Roast turkey (American)/Recipes and -- to avoid an empty main page -- I write a one-sentence lead.
Yes.
  1. I move the no longer current talk page to an archive.
Apparently Yes -- I'm not certain of all the moves.
  1. Hayford now considers the page as no longer ethnocentric
Yes -- because the page, as redone by Peter and others no longer WAS ethnocentric. All of the American recipes and references had been move to the "Recipes" tab and the remaining text was a couple of bland statements about roast turkey in general. There was, therefore, absolutely no reason to retain "(American)" in the title of the article.
  1. Instead of developing an American-centered page (the recipes are still ethnocentric!), Hayford changes his mind and wants to move the cluster back.
Why should I possibly WANT TO develop an American-centered page?! That's what I was PROTESTING about! The ethnocentric recipes (and TEXT) were now hidden by the Recipes tab. So, logically, since the article was no longer ethnocentric, there was no longer any reason to retain its title.
  1. Since this does not work immediately, and instead of making room for the move, he is impatient and copies main page and talk page to the intended name and requests to delete these pages
Yes. I admit to this grave fault. So take me out and shoot me. Or ban me from Citizendium.
  1. Howard objects, and I object because this would destroy the history of the pages and would leave the subpage and the talk page archive orphaned
Yes. But I thought you were objecting about the SUBJECT changes, not picayune History changes. Once again, take me out and shoot me.
  1. Hayford copies the Recipes subpage, as well.
Well, of course! My whole point of doing this was to change the WHOLE article and all of its subpages from one Title to another. There are now NO ORPHANED SUBPAGES.
  1. After that, the copies are changed as well, so that they have a history of their own
I have no idea of what happened to copies, etc. I can't believe that this is an issue worth spending ten seconds of our time on. Hayford Peirce 16:49, 17 October 2010 (UTC)

In addition, we have turkey (bird), turkey dinner, and domestic turkey. Don't forget Wild Turkey which should be bourbon. Aleta Curry 00:14, 17 October 2010 (UTC)

Yes. Thank you for doing that -- it tried to create order out of chaos. Hayford Peirce 16:51, 17 October 2010 (UTC)

Before continuing to develop turkey-related content it is necessary to find an agreement: What pages should exist, and what should be their content?

  • From what I have learned from American movies and literature, a page on American roast turkey seems to be justified
Possibly, but not necessarily so. Why would we have a page on ROAST American turkey and not ROAST English turkey or ROAST French turkey? Why not simply retain the now-existing page Roast turkey? We might have a page on American Thanksgiving and a section on turkeys.
These pages now already exist. And could be expanded.
See above comments -- these pages already exist.

I believe firmly in preserving the history of articles.

I do too -- BUT there has been a slight mix-up here concerning a newly created article (three days old, four days old?) and CZ's foundations will not crumble if a little of the History has disappeared or is deeply inaccessible. At least not in my opinion.

When there is agreement on titles and corresponding content we shall have to decide where to archive what currently exists. Comments? --Peter Schmitt 23:46, 16 October 2010 (UTC)

Yes. My own opinion is that we retain the Roast turkey article as it is. The Recipes part of it needs further work, EXTENSIVE work, to reformat the recipes. If you want to make this International, I can stick in a couple of French, English, and Mexican recipes. I further believe that all traces of the Roast turkey (American) article should be vanished as if they had never existed. Except, if you can find it, the History. But where you stick that in, I have no idea. Hayford Peirce 17:00, 17 October 2010 (UTC)
Howard is too chicken to continue this discussion and ducks out. Just crow when the rest of you have decided. I have been accused of being birdbrained when roasting turkey and probably have little to contribute. Howard C. Berkowitz 23:54, 16 October 2010 (UTC)
Aleta doesn't remember actually having been called a turkey - certainly not recently, but I have no stake in roast turkey. I am completely open-minded about turkey clusters. Aleta Curry 00:14, 17 October 2010 (UTC)
Turkey clusters? Pieces of turkey stuck together and covered with chocolate? Howard knows about turkey mole, but that's the extent of his turkey-chocolate experience.

(undent) Again, let me know which pages to delete and which to merge. This is not going to be easy, I'm sure. D. Matt Innis 16:07, 17 October 2010 (UTC)

Reply to Hayford

Hayford, I didn't make the list to accuse you. I made it to explain and justify why I am against deleting the pages, and why I think that there is a need for a plan ...

We only disagree on one, a rather, minor issue: I think that even such cases the history should be preserved (and that it would have been easier done by moves).

--Peter Schmitt 21:53, 17 October 2010 (UTC)

Recipes

The Recipes subpage needs heavy revision -- whether as subpage of this article or another. --Peter Schmitt 23:50, 16 October 2010 (UTC)

Factoids

The "factoids" were copied from one or two websites. They cannot be considered as reliable "facts" without further research. --Peter Schmitt 23:53, 16 October 2010 (UTC)

Agreed. I've moved them temporarily, you may already have noticed, if not, please see above. Aleta Curry 00:15, 17 October 2010 (UTC)
I strongly disagree. The facts were researched and written by me. There is no plagiarism involved and I am sorry you feel that I would commit such a serious sin of poor writing.Mary Ash 16:31, 17 October 2010 (UTC)
On re-reading I see you do not accept NPR or the turkey growers in Minnesota as reliable sources. I suspect both sources would know a thing about history and turkeys.Mary Ash 16:38, 17 October 2010 (UTC)


References

All the references came from university level sources, turkey experts or cooking experts. To claim the sources lack merit is untrue. Please return the Factoids to their rightful place in the article as they are well researched and written by me.Mary Ash 18:24, 17 October 2010 (UTC)


Corrected Stuffings to Stuffing

Corrected the word stuffings to stuffing. Sources:

Added reference concerning deep fat fried turkey

Add a source supporting the claim that deep fat frying a turkey is dangerous. Used the National Fire Protection Association as a source. And as a personal note, a regional off-duty firefighter was severely burned and lost most of his house Thanksgiving Day as he was trying to deep fat fry a turkey. Instead he burned his house down and ended up at the regional burn center. This method of cooking is very dangerous and not recommended.Mary Ash 18:31, 17 October 2010 (UTC)

French methods of roasting turkey

I think you're wrong about this. I lived in Tahiti for 25 years and everyone I knew who roasted a turkey did it exactly as an American would, with a little liquid in the bottom of the pan at some point, but they weren't doing anything more than that to make them "moist". By that, do you mean "braise"? It's possible, of course, but I never heard of it, anymore than I see "braised turkey" on the menus of restaurants. Probably a better way of cooking them, of course, but braising isn't roasting.... Hayford Peirce 20:21, 17 October 2010 (UTC)

The French recipe found online has the addition of a small amount of liquid with a covered roaster when roasting the turkey. James Peterson's recipe uses a dry roast recipe with turkey covered with butter aluminum foil. He also suggests adding a small amount of liquid, if the meat juices begin to burn.Mary Ash 21:03, 17 October 2010 (UTC)

Additional turkey factoid sources

American or international

If you think that there should be only one article I do not object.

But my personal impression is that -- while roast turkey is eaten all over the world -- it has a special significance for North America. Thus, I think, one international article (not several!) and one on American issues would be justified. (At least the recipe subpages should be split!)

For instance, here in middle Europe, turkey is eaten, but seldom prepared as a whole. This is rather replaced by the (rather smaller) goose, often at Christmas, and traditionally mid-November (St. Martin's Day). For greater parties, usually a suckling pig is taken.

--Peter Schmitt 22:01, 17 October 2010 (UTC)

I'm not disagreeing with you about the goose or any other bird. The article address the turkey and so the article will be about the turkey. BTW I just lost about three hours research trying to justify why the factoid segment is accurate and well researched. Sigh...Mary Ash 22:32, 17 October 2010 (UTC)
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