User talk:David Finn

Welcome back

Hi David,

I have provisionally lifted your block until the Management Committee handles your appeal. --Daniel Mietchen 23:07, 15 January 2011 (UTC) (as Managing Editor)

I would have to see that the ME has the authority to do this before I can actually unblock this account. The charter seems to state that the appeal has to go through the MC. D. Matt Innis 00:13, 16 January 2011 (UTC)

You're quite right Matt, but Article 36 in my view gives the ME quite wide ranging authority to make interim decisions; in this case, the ME isn't prejudging the appeal, but is allowing David to fully participate in discussions while that is in process.Gareth Leng 10:23, 16 January 2011 (UTC)

This appears to be a slippery slope. If a citizen is blocked due to their behavior during discussions, why would we allow them to continue these discussions? I could understand that the ME could act as a check to the constabulary in discussions that affect content, but this has the potential of undermining the authority of the constabulary and make their actions moot. In fact, this does not appear to be a decision based on merit, but appears to be a manipulation on the part of the ME to force the MC to take action. I share his empathy, but releasing a blocked citizen should be after a formal decision, not because the prisons are too full to hear all the cases. Otherwise we'll have inmates loose on the site if they can't get a hearing, even if the MC has decided 'not' to hear it. Perhaps a "limited release" is in order? Either way, it seems I have to take my orders from the MC. A better path may be to request the MC give a decision. D. Matt Innis 18:00, 16 January 2011 (UTC)

As Secretary of the Editorial Council I have no ax to grind in this matter but I do think that after nearly two months the MC ought to be able at least to issue a public statement as to whether or not they are going to hear the appeal. Without going into the merits of the appeal at all, it ought to be able to poll five people and find out whether three of them are willing to look into the matter. Aside from that, as a private Citizen, I agree with Matt: if a Citizen is banned for misuse of Talk space, it doesn't make sense to give it back to him while awaiting his appeal. Suppose he misuses it *again*? And is banned again? Is he then reinstated a *second* time while he appeals *this* case? Maybe I'm just talking like an old Cop backing up the present one.... Hayford Peirce 18:57, 16 January 2011 (UTC)

I think that the ME could act, but not by lifting the ban until the MC decides. Instead he could interpret the long delay as a valid reason for an interim decision, and decide on the appeal. This decision could then be overruled by the MC if it chooses to do so. --Peter Schmitt 02:04, 17 January 2011 (UTC)

The information that was gathered for the appeal is only released to those performing the appeal. The ME hasn't seen it. How can he make a decision? Currently, no-one has seen it but the constabulary. D. Matt Innis 02:27, 17 January 2011 (UTC)

A fair number of judicial systems require a reasonably speedy hearing; if that is not granted, charges may be dropped. It would be one thing if the Constabulary ruling were made as a formal, adversarial proceeding at which both sides can present their cases, but summary judgment can, in fairness, not substitute for a hearing. Howard C. Berkowitz 02:57, 17 January 2011 (UTC)

Presumably, the USA and some of its citizens find it convenient to forget the shame of Guantanomo Bay: forget about speedy hearings, why have any hearings at all? In this particular case, as I was tangentially involved as was Howard, I do not find it appropriate to challenge the decision and impartiality of the Constabulary. The MC has responsibility for this matter, and should attend to it. Allowing the ME to interfere is asking for trouble. Martin Baldwin-Edwards 03:22, 17 January 2011 (UTC)

Hehe, same old Martin, unmellowed by transiting into 2011! Glad to see that some things remain eternal. (I agree with your comments, by the way.) Hayford Peirce 03:53, 17 January 2011 (UTC)

Guantanamo...rather like the Civil Authorities (Special Powers) Act (Northern Ireland)? Howard C. Berkowitz 04:06, 17 January 2011 (UTC)

David, if you are back, welcome back. If not, good luck on the appeal.

Hayford wrote "the MC ought to be able at least to issue a public statement as to whether or not they are going to hear the appeal ... are willing to look into the matter." I do not think they have a choice on that. Appeals are in the charter; they must hear them. Of course they would be entirely within their rights to summarily dismiss an appeal in some cases -- take a quick look, decide it was nonsense, and reject it, end of story -- but I do not think they can refuse to hear one. I also don't think this one is a candidate for summary rejection.

I agree with Gareth and the ME; I think article 36 gives the ME the authority to act here. Whether he just lifts the ban temporarily or actually decides the appeal as Peter suggests is not important. Sandy Harris 06:34, 17 January 2011 (UTC)

If the ME lifts the ban, then he is emasculating the Constabulary by saying, "You can ban people but I can unban them." Where does it end? If it were me, and I was still a Constable, I would then resign immediately. If it were Matt, who is certainly the most even-tempered Constable any group of people is ever going to be lucky enough to find in a million years, he will probably just say, "Well, the hell with it. If the ME can ban and unban people, why should I bother to do it in the first place? So I won't." And then, a couple of months later, when the *next* case arises, all the people who are now complaining about the over-extension of a Constable's power will probably be yelling, "Hey, BAN that guy, can't you see what he's done!" And Matt will just shrug and say, "YOU ban him." Don't say that I haven't warned you.... Hayford Peirce 17:39, 17 January 2011 (UTC)

Keep in mind that ME decisions become precedent setting policy until the appropriate council overules. If they don't, then his action becomes policy that the constabulary follows from there on out. If the ME removes a block without hearing an appeal, and without even seeing the documentation, then this is equivalent to a presidential pardon. This is the exact problem we had with Larry. The ME takes full responsibility for all of the consequences. D. Matt Innis 02:52, 18 January 2011 (UTC)