Talk:Netherlands

I would be pleased if experts contributed to this article (I'm only a citizen of this country and not an expert in anything geographical).--Paul Wormer 04:07, 22 August 2007 (CDT)

Hi paul, i just added the subpages to this page so you can see how it works. The checklist you added now lives at the metadata page (click the organge M) amongst other things, although there is still a visual representation placed here by the subpage template. On the article all the categories are placed by the subpages template too. Chris Day (talk) 04:47, 22 August 2007 (CDT)

Two houses of parliament?

Is that an upper and lower house (like the UK's house of commons and house of lords or the US congress and senate) - in which case the phrase should be changed to bicameral parliament?

I think you are right, in Dutch we call it eerste (first) and tweede (second) kamer (chamber). I didn't know the term bicameral. Thank you. --Paul Wormer 07:54, 22 August 2007 (CDT)

Workgroup The Netherlands

Let's start here. --Daniel Breslauer 06:40, 4 February 2008 (CST)

Daniel, thank you for inviting me here (see here). Like Paul, I'm a citizen of the Netherlands and not an expert on geographical or political subjects. However, if there's going to be a workgroup I would be happy to help out (although my time is limited). Regards, Martijn Lens 04:20, 5 February 2008 (CST)

Well, I'll try to contribute some too. I'm Dutch too, though I've been living in the United States for almost six years now. I just added a whole bunch of stuff. Michel van der Hoek 23:02, 28 April 2008 (CDT)

Ural Mountains

I copied verbatim the sentence containing "Ural Mountains" from the Oxford Atlas of the World, 11th ed. (2003). It is the first sentence in the entry "Netherlands". --Paul Wormer 03:56, 29 April 2008 (CDT)

I'm not challenging the veracity of the statement. I guess I'm just being nitpicky about the style of the sentence. To mention the "Ural Mountains" in an article about the Netherlands just seems ridiculous. It is mentioned in a subclause that specifies information about the European plain, but the subclause does not add anything to the description of the Netherlands. It would be the equivalent of saying, "California is bordered on the west by the Pacific Ocean which extends to Japan." True but pointless.Michel van der Hoek 10:15, 29 April 2008 (CDT)

Plural or singular?

The Oxford atlas writes The Netherlands lies (singular). The lead-in uses singular throughout, so would one say The Netherlands are a constitutional monarchy?--Paul Wormer 04:01, 29 April 2008 (CDT)

There is some disagreement among English speakers. In American usage it would be The Netherlands lies... and many Brits would also follow this usage. However, some people take the phrase "The Netherlands" as a collective plural in the same way as phrases as "the police" (Police are saying...). Some Brits also talk about The United States are..., though few if any Americans would say that. Unfortunately, the most authoritative dictionaries I own either don't have an entry for "Netherlands" (the Oxford English Dictionary OED) or carefully avoid sentences where they would have to indicate grammatical number (American Heritage Dictionary). The Britannica Concise Encyclopedia uses Netherlands as a singular. I would propose that we follow this custom and correct any preexisting text to conform to it. Michel van der Hoek 10:46, 29 April 2008 (CDT)

Prehistory and Conversion to Christianity

Nice section, well done.--Paul Wormer 04:08, 29 April 2008 (CDT)

Thank you. Michel van der Hoek 10:48, 29 April 2008 (CDT)

TON?

Excuse my ignorance, but what is the political party TON? I have never heard of it, but, as I say, I've been gone from Holland for almost 6 years now. I can't find any reference to it anywhere. Am I missing something really obvious? Michel van der Hoek 10:48, 29 April 2008 (CDT)

I just researched this a little more and found that TON = Trots op Nederland (Proud of the Netherlands), an extremist nationalist party. I do not see why this group should be included in an encyclopedia article. It is extremely new and small. This party has had no influence of mention on Dutch culture, politics, or anything else. I propose we delete the reference to TON.

You are quite mistaken, if we may believe the independent polls the "movement" (not a party) will have about 25 seats in parliament (will be larger than the VVD and about as large as the PvdA). The leader of the movement (Rita Verdonk) believes that she will get 40 seats and will become prime minister (personally I abhor the idea). Because of these polls the party (excuse me, movement) has already much influence, just as Pim Fortuyn had (you know of him, don't you?)--Paul Wormer 13:58, 29 April 2008 (CDT)

Paul, thank you for your comments and your other contributions on the article I have seen. Just to make sure we get off on the right foot, I do not insist on this point. Frankly, this discussion is of relatively little importance. It's a judgment call and since I do not live in Holland right now, I will defer to your judgment. Yet, even if the polls are correct, I still doubt whether this populist party (because that is what it is, despite their own name!) has a place in an encyclopedic article on the Netherlands. This movement is so new. The party LPF (yes, I watched TV all evening, aghast, when Pim Fortuyn was assassinated in 2002, when I was still living in Holland) lasted about 3 years until its support vanished. Is TON replacing LPF and carrying on the same or similar sentiment? Personally, I would not include TON in this article, but reserve it for a separate article on Dutch politics or something like it, at least until a year or two have gone by, or, alternatively, this party wins some official election. This is just my own gut feeling of what constitutes noteworthiness in an encyclopedia article. But go ahead. Any other opinions out there? Michel van der Hoek 15:49, 29 April 2008 (CDT)

It depends. The BNP has seen some success in England in recent years, at the expense of the old white nationalist movements. Their not exactly mainstream in their support, but their are a lot of neo-fascist groups emerging in Europe, and are definately worthy of an encyclopedia article. Denis Cavanagh 17:00, 29 April 2008 (CDT)

people will lok to CZ for current events and TON is making waves: today's polls have it taking 23 seats and that's significant: Rita Verdonk’s populist party TON continues its rise in the polls and would take 23 seats in parliament if there was an election now, according to the latest Maurice de Hond poll. The Liberal democratic D66 party is also still on the up, boosting its support from 11 to 12. The party currently has three seats. Support for the ruling Christian Democrats is up from 31 to 33. However, the three-party coalition as a whole would only take 68 seats, well below the 76 necessary for an overall majority in the 150-seat parliament. source Richard Jensen 18:02, 29 April 2008 (CDT)

Troops in Iraq

I believe that we (i.e., the Dutch) had never more than, say 1500, troops in Iraq. We have about that many now in Afghanistan.--Paul Wormer 14:08, 29 April 2008 (CDT)

good point--I took the numbers from the Embassy Press release, which talks about aggregate who served. The max was about 1700, so I will revise. Richard Jensen 14:34, 29 April 2008 (CDT)

History article

I've begun the Netherlands, history article and would appreciate feedback. Richard Jensen 19:59, 29 April 2008 (CDT)

Looking good so far! I have an old two volume collection by J Motley, a historian who wrote a famous work on the 'rise of the Dutch Republic'. I might make a stab at adding to the eighty year war when (If) I get a chance. Denis Cavanagh 20:42, 29 April 2008 (CDT)

hey, thanks! re Motley, well I almost remember when that book first appeared. :) Richard Jensen 20:53, 29 April 2008 (CDT)

Good idea! I've added a bit on the Middle Ages. Feel free to add, tweak, specify. I put a longer version on the Netherlands, history article, and a summarized version here. Michel van der Hoek 10:25, 30 April 2008 (CDT)

yes, a short history here can be pitched to a general reader. Students should read the longer, more complex, annotated version at Netherlands, history.Richard Jensen 15:53, 30 April 2008 (CDT)

Pennsylvania Dutch

As a linguist/philologist, I have to put my foot down on this point. "Pennsylvania Dutch" is a linguistic term, not an ethnic term. While in colloquial speech, people may talk about the "Pennsylvania Dutch" as a group of people, this is technically incorrect. "Pennsylvania Dutch" means "Pennsylvania Deutsch", i.e. the dialect of German spoken in the German settlements of Pennsylvania. It is true that 95% percent of the people who used to speak this dialect have given it up and now only speak English, there are still some tiny pockets of German speakers left within the most conservative branches of the Amish. Also, it is not correct to think that only the Amish or the Mennonites spoke Pennsylvania Dutch. It used to be simply the name for the German dialect spoken by any descendants of the Pennsylvania settlers, wherever they were located in the US. The dialect could (can) be identified by certain peculiarities. I don't have any written sources on this (I will have to look for it), but I heard a presentation on the topic at the Germanic Linguistics Annual Conference at Penn State (yes, in the middle of Pennsylvania Dutch country) only last year. Michel van der Hoek 22:58, 30 April 2008 (CDT)

well as a historian of American ethnic groups I can explain that Pennsylvania Dutch is indeed primarily an ethnic term (not merely a linguistic term). The ethnic groups still exists and are collectively still called Pennsylvania Dutch, but German is almost dead (except among the Amish). The article is not about the Dutch language, so the linguistic point should be made in a separate article. (On linguistics, I would indeed be astonished to find there was just one dialect, as the Pennsylvania Dutch came from many different parts of Germany and Switzerland. The largest number were Lutherans from the Palatine. There were numerous sects, like Moravians, Mennonites, Amish, United Brethren and others, all with distinct histories. (My wife was PI on an NEH project on the music of the Pennsylvania Dutch, so I heard a great deal about them, visited numerous sites in the 1980s and met with local religious and music leaders.) 23:54, 30 April 2008 (CDT)