Talk:George W. Bush

Article Checklist for "George W. Bush"

Workgroup category or categories	Politics Workgroup [Editors asked to check categories]
Article status	Developing article: beyond a stub, but incomplete
Underlinked article?	Yes
Basic cleanup done?	Yes
Checklist last edited by	Robert Winmill 15:49, 28 April 2007 (CDT)

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This needs much improvement.

For starters, it should at least be stated that Bush lost the popular vote in his first election, though he won the the Electoral College.

The statement "reelected by 3 million majority over John Kerry in 2004" is misleading; the figure should include popular and electoral vote, and express the popular vote not only as a number, but as a percentage of votes cast (3 million makes the result sound less close than it was).

Russell Potter 15:50, 28 April 2007 (CDT)

I just fixed it. :-)

Looks much better! I do think it may be tricky to have the best overall information on a person who is still living and still serving as president -- that real estate boom may soon be (or may already be) a bust! -- but it's certainly worth trying. It will give us all a course of isometrics in the school of NPOV. Russell Potter 18:45, 28 April 2007 (CDT)

I agree, the real estate thing and a lot of other "markers" were added by Richard. Also I don't know why the Plame intelligence leakage Affair and NSA wiretapping scandal were erased, are they not important enough? Yi Zhe Wu 19:55, 28 April 2007 (CDT)

The Plame scandal was not important enough. (The prospect it would bring down Rove would make it impoirtant but that did NOT happen.) NSA wiretapping issue was minor affair likewise. The real estate boom affected tens of millions of people (and seems to have ended now, but was a major factor in the economy for years). What we have in the article is just a list of markers ("events" is not quite the word), with only a couple words on each. A real article on the Bush years will have a paragraph+ on each item. Richard Jensen 00:05, 29 April 2007 (CDT)

Someone needs to invoke the neutrality principle for this article.

Neutrality? that's unlikely given the high octane topic. There are no neutrals out there that we can cater to, in my opinion. The best we can do is list all the main issues right now. We have even STARTED to write the article. Richard Jensen 10:35, 29 April 2007 (CDT)

What do ya mean by high octane? Is this an metaphorical expression? But I do agree that writing an article on the current president will get into a lot of neutrality issues, and it's very very hard to write about him neutrally. Anyways, we only need to wait till 2009 when he steps down any indeterminate issue about him will be resolved. Yi Zhe Wu 11:24, 29 April 2007 (CDT)

"high octane" is an old-fashioned expression for an explosive issue that burns red hot. The article should avoid explicit partisanship --that is very hard for any one editor to do, but it might work out ok collectively. Richard Jensen 11:44, 29 April 2007 (CDT)

A good example of explicit partisanship is the use of the political rhetoric "scandal" with the Attorney General's firings. US attorneys serve at the will of the president; other presidents have dismissed them for a variety of stated reasons, but most are partisan, whether stated or not. The terms here should be neutral to keep from taking sides in a political controversy. David L Green 22:16, 5 May 2007 (CDT)

It's not a partisan issue. It's the Republicans in Senate (11 of 12 on Judiciary) who've attaCKED Bush and most called for Gonzales to resign. Richard Jensen 13:08, 6 May 2007 (CDT).

Elections

, winning 51% of the votes and a 3 million majority

U.S. presidents are not elected by popular sovereignty. Rather, the votes in each state are counted. Whoever "wins that state" gets all its electoral votes.

It is only a matter of historical curiousity, not constitutional significance, when a candidate gets a majority of electoral votes while an opponents gets a plurality of popular votes.

Agitation to change the Electoral college sometimes crops up, typically from partisons for the losing candidate. Perhaps we need an an article on election reform or Electoral college reform. --Ed Poor 11:22, 10 May 2007 (CDT)

I disagree -- it is not merely a matter of historical curiosity who gets how many votes in the popular election. Obviously, with the Electoral College system with each state's slate of electors, the popular vote is rarely reflected by the Electoral College vote, although there have been a few instances where the winner of the popular vote won in the EC. Stating the facts in the matter (popular vote, electoral vote) seems the best, most neutral way to reflect this. Russell Potter 11:27, 10 May 2007 (CDT)

I agree with Ed. It sounds like sour grapes. For example, would one say, "In a strike shortened season, including three wins by non-union scab players, the Washington Redskins won the Super Bowl." I think a better alternative would be to say, "The Washington Redskins defeated the Denver Broncos to win the Superbowl." And at some appropriate point mention the oddity of the strike-shortened season.

Of course, if you think this detail about the popular vote is fair / important, why doesn't the Bill Clinton article mention that Clinton did not come close to winning a majority of the popular vote in either of his Presidential races? Will Nesbitt 07:46, 21 July 2007 (CDT)

Bin Laden and 9/11

I have moved the article away from saying that UBL actually directed the attacks to what I believe is strictly accurate: that he has claimed responsibility for them. If this is wrong, revert. I have also mentioned the repercussions of the Iraq war. John Stephenson 02:47, 15 May 2007 (CDT)

Photo to illustrate (foreign) opposition

George W. Bush's presidency has often sparked controversy. This protest took place in Vienna, Austria, in 2006.

The photo to the right can perhaps go on a section about opposition to George W. Bush and his administration. Or not. It's there if anyone wants it in the article. John Stephenson 03:02, 15 May 2007 (CDT)

American Presidents have been protested across the world in a good many places. I would oppose this picture because it would take more than a thousand words to put this into context and proper perspective. Similarly, I think it would be silly to show Bush being mobbed like a rock star by crying overjoyed supporters in Armenia. Will Nesbitt 07:38, 21 July 2007 (CDT)

Analysis & Justification of a Deletion

I think a good many conservatives are disappointed with the Bush presidency because Bush is a "compassionate conservative", i.e. a liberal, when it comes to government spending. There is a good deal of analysis that indicates that Republican spending had as much to do with Republican losses in the House & Senate, as Iraq. This analysis might not be correct, but it's out there. Therefore, since the experts can't agree on why Democrat gains in the House and Senate were made, I think we should be careful to avoid conclusions. It might be best to just stay out of the analysis game altogether (because that's where the arguments lurk) and stick with the facts. Will Nesbitt 07:38, 21 July 2007 (CDT)

I tried to edit this sentence:

Many talk radio hosts who had been staunch Bush supporters turned against him, denounced it as "amnesty," and mobilized Republican opinion against the measure.

But I couldn't find a way to both report a good many facts relevant to this sentence without ballooning the verbiage and thereby implying that the topic is more important than other subjects covered in a single sentence. Without any prosaic artistry here are some facts which I think are relevant to this sentence, but are not mentioned:

• Many talk show hosts are conservatives
• Many conservatives supported the President and the Republican party, but many conservatives are now unhappy with the party because of explosive government spending, lax immigration enforcement, mishandled war efforts
• Every political talk radio program attempts to mobilize opinion about something.
• Talk radio struck a chord with listeners with this particular topic. Many people from diverse political affiliations opposed the proposed legislation
• Many Americans thought of the proposed reforms as "amnesty"

In the end, this issue could be / will be an article in and of itself. On this page it seems to make more sense to avoid political characterizations and stick to the most easily reported facts. Will Nesbitt 07:38, 21 July 2007 (CDT)