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| IMDB is a wiki for screen appearances. Most of their information is added by anonymous users, like on most wikis, and they do not claim that their information has any guarantee of accuracy. In fact [http://www.imdb.com/help/show_leaf?infosource their description page] explains that that this system allows errors to creep in. IMDB should not be used as a reference. [[User:David Finn|David Finn]] 01:24, 13 May 2011 (CDT)
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| By the way, I am not saying the information in this article is inaccurate or should be removed. I just mean that IMDB shouldn't be cited for the information. It could be replaced [http://articles.chicagotribune.com/2011-05-09/entertainment/chi-alton-brown-calls-an-end-to-good-eats-20110509_1_roast-beef-pot-roast-steak with a different citation] or, since it is unquestionably true, even left without citation. [[User:David Finn|David Finn]] 07:10, 13 May 2011 (CDT)
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| David you seemed to ignore the local news coverage offered in the list of references:
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| Alton Brown ending Food Network’s ‘Good Eats’ after 249 episodes
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| 3:55 pm May 12, 2011, by Rodney Ho
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| CREDIT: AP
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| CREDIT: AP
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| Marietta food guru Alton Brown announced yesterday that after 249 episodes, he is shutting down “Good Eats,” a Food Network staple since 1999.
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| Beau Benton, his spokesman, confirmed that “Good Eats” will no longer be a regular series though Brown does plan three one-hour specials this year. He said Brown was not available for interviews.
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| Brown’s “Good Eats” has been a standard dish on Food Network’s menu for years, frequently in prime time. A fast-paced, intricately-created concoction, the show provides viewers with food history, cooking tips and oddball trivia on a single topic in Brown’s signature light-hearted and frequently sardonic tone. Over nearly 250 episodes, he chewed on almost every food subject there is, be it olives, steak or bouillabaisse. With some common staples like pasta or eggs, he’s done multiple episodes. And he’d hire local actors to play goofy parts.
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| One of those actors, Vickie Eng, who played the mysterious W character on about 30 episodes, said Brown put “blood, sweat and tears” into the show as director, writer and star. Her favorite moment was dangling from the ceiling Tom Cruise/”Mission Impossible” style for an episode on oysters.
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| Bobby Flay, another Food Network staple, said in an interview yesterday that he admires Brown for his “encyclopedic knowledge” of food and how he’s able to leverage that in multiple arenas.
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| Brown owns a 15,000-square-foot studio in Atlanta where he has shot “Good Eats.” Much of his staff and crew has been with him for years, a testament to his good works as a boss. “Everybody there is like family,” Eng said.
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| The Welch’s spokesman and author recently re-signed a new contract with Food Network and has an entrenched job with “Iron Chef” and its various incarnations. Undoubtedly, he has another show idea in his fridge.
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| http://blogs.ajc.com/radio-tv-talk/2011/05/12/alton-brown-ending-food-networks-good-eats/?cxntlid=thbz_hm
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| The source is from an Atlanta newspaper and fed through the AP. This is a good source.
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| The IMDB offered a standard disclaimer. The IMDB started from Usenet, if I remember right, and is now owned by [[Amazon]]. As Amazon is a respected company, known for being a good Netzien, I suspect the information found within its database will be relatively accurate.
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| As this is a media story using IMDB as a '''starting''' point for a '''stub''' that '''you''' or any '''Citizen''' could expand is appropriate. Other '''sources''' you might want to check include Advertising Age. As this article is marked as a '''stub''' there is absolutely nothing wrong with how it's written or sourced. '''Stubs''' are meant to be expanded and are a '''WIP'''. '''David''' I am sure '''you''' realize this as you have vast '''experience''' with wikis.
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| Finally, David, you do not seem to realize this is a '''volunteer''' outfit and none of our paid to write here. We contribute what we can when we can. I am sorry '''you''' do not realize that this is a volunteer organization and you can not demand volunteers to do more than they wish. The article will be written and expanded when I have time unless some else, perhaps you, decide to add to it.
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| As a reminder we are all '''volunteers''' who give what little time we have to make '''Citizendium''' a better place. [[User:Mary Ash|Mary Ash]] 08:45, 13 May 2011 (CDT)
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| :Um, no, I didn't ignore the other reference, which isn't from IMDB, I was simply offering my opinions on IMDB. I also stressed that I didn't doubt the accuracy of the article, and I still don't, so the entire first half of your message is irrelevant.
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| :I was commenting on IMDB. Did you read the IMDB disclaimer? They get most of their content from regular citizens, who have gotten most of that content from news articles. This is an encyclopedia. We shouldn't be citing other encyclopedias, we should be providing citations to where they got their information.
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| :You have already provided a good citation, so why do we need the IMDB one? I wasn't giving you an example citation in place of the fine one you have provided above, I was just showing you an example of a better source than the IMDB one.
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| :Mary, when I edit articles that you are working on you often revert me. I thought rather than change the reference I would engage in discussion about it here, which hasn't gone too well either. I am quite aware that this is a voluntary organisation, and no-one is expected to do anything, but at a bare minimum they might be expected to be able to discuss matters of content without always making it a discussion about other Citizens and their attitudes. [[User:David Finn|David Finn]] 09:57, 13 May 2011 (CDT)
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| ==Rolled back to reflect IMDB==
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| Rolled back to reflect the IMDB. As I have a degree in English/Communications I would consider qualifications capable of determining this as an appropriate source. If a journalism/media editor would like to review this I would welcome it. Since I am one of the few journalism authors listed here, and probably your only one, good luck. The IDMD is a respected source. Enough said. [[User:Mary Ash|Mary Ash]] 12:50, 14 May 2011 (CDT)
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| :If you would like to rely on your qualifications, you will have to apply to be an Editor. Since you have declined to disclose your journalistic experience the only indicator we have of your abilities is your contributions to CZ. So far they haven't suggested that you are in a position to make Editor-style rulings.
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| :I am also listed as a journalism Author. It is as simple as adding it to your userpage. Like you I have declined to provide evidence of my journalistic experience, so I think we are now equally qualified to comment on the article.
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| :Once again - since you haven't answered any of the points above so I have to repeat them in case you just missed them, we can never be sure - you have already included a good reference, and now you are edit warring to insert a superfluous one. You haven't indicated that you understand how IMDB gets its information. You haven't actually made any substantive comment on the issue, except to incorrectly state that because you think IMDBs parent company is a good "Netzien" that IMDB information must be good. And you ignore the issue, confusing accuracy with appropriate sourcing.
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| :You also seem to have missed that I '''moved''' the external link to the External Links page, leaving your other more appropriate source, so by reverting me (perhaps "for jollies" like you stated elsewhere) you just added duplicate information. For that reason I'll just remove that duplicate instance for you, while you hunt down an Editor. [[User:David Finn|David Finn]] 13:37, 14 May 2011 (CDT)
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| ::David you complained about one reference while the article was in progress. I found another supporting link to detail what you complained about. The links will stay. If you revert this I will contact a Constable as you are attempting to start an edit war. Also, unless you can prove you are a journalism author, or have a degree in English/Journalism/Media my "ruling" stays. As I wrote earlier there are no journalism authors here except me. [[User:Mary Ash|Mary Ash]] 14:18, 14 May 2011 (CDT)
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| :::People, people! I'm not taking sides on this, since I haven't bothered to read about what's going on. I '''can''' see, however, that you are either perilously close to a "revert war" or actually in one! Remember, here at CZ we absolutely do NOT permit that. Never. Not once. I'm writing this only as a Citizen, not as a Constable (which I'm not), but I just want to warn both of you that I think you're on terribly thin ice. I would hate to see you disappear at the wave of a Constable's wand, but it *could* happen if you don't find some other way to handle this situation. Best, [[User:Hayford Peirce|Hayford Peirce]] 15:40, 14 May 2011 (CDT)
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| ::::Hayford if you wish to take a look at the references I'd appreciate it. As you are a published author, presumably have had experience with the media, I am sure your Editorial skills will prevail. There has to be an end point and I have tried to work graciously with David but it seems he refuses to acknowledge my designation as a journalism (with professional experience) author, my degree in English/Communications; followed up with my minor in history. All those qualifications would make me competent enough to evaluate sources without friendly guidance from someone who may not have those skills.[[User:Mary Ash|Mary Ash]] 16:25, 14 May 2011 (CDT)
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| :::::As a side note I offer this link to show the contributions made by David: [[http://en.citizendium.org/wiki/Special:Contributions/David_Finn]] It seems a good chunk of his time is spent following me around Citizendium. Perhaps it's because I am one of the few authors left contributing here, I don't know, but I feel like I am slowly being pecked to death writing-wise. :-) [[User:Mary Ash|Mary Ash]] 16:37, 14 May 2011 (CDT)
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| ::::::Is this the source you're arguing about? http://www.tv.com/alton-brown/person/219990/biography.html It certainly doesn't seem to me to be much of a source for an encyclopedia article. I myself certainly wouldn't cite it. [[User:Hayford Peirce|Hayford Peirce]] 17:23, 14 May 2011 (CDT)
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| {unindent)Nope that's not it. I used it as a secondary source as David did not like the Internet Movie Database source. The source you checked is owned by CBS Entertainment though and it could probably work........[[User:Mary Ash|Mary Ash]] 17:41, 14 May 2011 (CDT) | |
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| == Gotta have an Apple == | | == Gotta have an Apple == |
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| This sort of gossip has no encyclopedic value and only serves as p.r. for Apple. --[[User:Peter Schmitt|Peter Schmitt]] 18:23, 14 May 2011 (CDT) | | This sort of gossip has no encyclopedic value and only serves as p.r. for Apple. --[[User:Peter Schmitt|Peter Schmitt]] 18:23, 14 May 2011 (CDT) |
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| :Absolutely. That whole section should go. This guy is just a TV chef, not a chief of state, we don't need family tidbits about him.... [[User:Hayford Peirce|Hayford Peirce]] 18:36, 14 May 2011 (CDT) | | :Absolutely. That whole section should go. This guy is just a TV chef, not a Head of State, we don't need family tidbits about him.... [[User:Hayford Peirce|Hayford Peirce]] 18:36, 14 May 2011 (CDT) |
| ::Below is the page I found that tells about Citizendium writing: | | ::Below is the page I found that tells about Citizendium writing: |
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| I would like thank Hayford for his professional edits. I have not read the article page but I am sure he did just fine. [[User:Mary Ash|Mary Ash]] 20:57, 14 May 2011 (CDT) | | I would like thank Hayford for his professional edits. I have not read the article page but I am sure he did just fine. [[User:Mary Ash|Mary Ash]] 20:57, 14 May 2011 (CDT) |
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| == Edit war ==
| | {{nocomplaints}} |
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| Fot those of you who don't want to read the history, let me refresh for you.
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| :[http://en.citizendium.org/wiki?title=Talk:Alton_Brown&diff=100771349&oldid=100771313 David suggests that IMDB is not a good citation] but does so on the talkpage and does not alter the article.
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| :[http://en.citizendium.org/wiki?title=Talk:Alton_Brown&diff=next&oldid=100771349 David adds] "''By the way, I am not saying the information in this article is inaccurate or should be removed...since it is unquestionably true''"
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| :[http://en.citizendium.org/wiki?title=Talk:Alton_Brown&diff=next&oldid=100771371 Mary replies] that we are all volunteers and anyone (even I) can edit the article.
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| :[http://en.citizendium.org/wiki?title=Alton_Brown/External_Links&diff=100771581&oldid=100771316 David moves the link] to the External Links page, preserving the link and leaving a more encyclopedic citation in its place (one that was also added by Mary)
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| :[http://en.citizendium.org/wiki?title=Alton_Brown&diff=100771629&oldid=100771579 Mary presses the revert button]
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| :[http://en.citizendium.org/wiki?title=Talk:Alton_Brown&diff=next&oldid=100771395 Mary, an Author, makes an "Editorial ruling"] about retaining IMDB as a citation in the main article.
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| :[http://en.citizendium.org/wiki?title=Talk:Alton_Brown&diff=next&oldid=100771635 Mary clarifies] that she has made an official Editor Ruling:
| | == Constable cleanup == |
| ::''"unless you can prove you are a journalism author, or have a degree in English/Journalism/Media my "ruling" stays. As I wrote earlier there are no journalism authors here except me"''
| | The last version of this talk page is found [http://en.citizendium.org/wiki?title=Talk:Alton_Brown&oldid=100771747 here]. |
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| Mary states she is qualified to make Editorial Rulings. I call that question and ask the community for input regarding Marys qualifications for considering herself in a position to make Editorial Rulings. [[User:David Finn|David Finn]] 02:41, 15 May 2011 (CDT)
| | Now, let's start over. [[User:D. Matt Innis|D. Matt Innis]] 09:07, 15 May 2011 (CDT) |
Freshstart
The Constabulary has removed a conversation here that either in whole or in part did not meet Citizendium's Professionalism policy. Feel free to remove this template and take up the conversation with a fresh start.
Gotta have an Apple
This sort of gossip has no encyclopedic value and only serves as p.r. for Apple. --Peter Schmitt 18:23, 14 May 2011 (CDT)
- Absolutely. That whole section should go. This guy is just a TV chef, not a Head of State, we don't need family tidbits about him.... Hayford Peirce 18:36, 14 May 2011 (CDT)
- Below is the page I found that tells about Citizendium writing:
Write lively prose, not "encyclopedese"Writing an encyclopedia brings out a tendency in some writers to make prose dull--perhaps the influence of boring encyclopedia articles we read as children. But we can, and should, give our prose personality. Many writers today have taken William Strunk's pithy injunction, "Omit needless words," to heart. Tightening up flabby verbiage is one of the most needful improvements we can make, but we must not denature our prose entirely: we want our writing to be readable, not encyclopedese.
Another common stylistic rule would have us use simple Anglo-Saxon words rather than hifalutin, impressive-sounding words, but this does not mean that we should prefer a merely adequate word to a really apt word just because the apt word is a bit more obscure. Choose the familiar word rather than the obscure word, but the precise word rather than the loose word.
I was trying to lighten things up as this is not a serious academic article. Yes, Alton Brown is a well-known US TV personality, but writing about him does not have to be dead prose as this article is not something dealing with life or death issues. It's just short bio about someone who has managed to survive 10 years in TV Land.
I would like thank Hayford for his professional edits. I have not read the article page but I am sure he did just fine. Mary Ash 20:57, 14 May 2011 (CDT)
A comment here was deleted by The Constabulary on grounds of making complaints about fellow Citizens. If you have a complaint about the behavior of another Citizen, e-mail constables@citizendium.org. It is contrary to Citizendium policy to air your complaints on the wiki. See also CZ:Professionalism.
Constable cleanup
The last version of this talk page is found here.
Now, let's start over. D. Matt Innis 09:07, 15 May 2011 (CDT)
