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| ==Questions== | | == For crying out loud == |
| | Now, there exists (thanks to guess how): |
| | * [[9-11 Attack]] |
| | * [[9-11 Attack in New York]] |
| | * [[9-11 Commission/Definition]] which redirects to [[9-11 Commission]] |
| | * [[9-11 Hijackers]] |
| | * [[9-11 conspiracy theory]] |
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| Is this the best title for this article? Looking at the redirects already creates, other options would be "September 11th terrorist attack", or "September 11, 2001 attacks", and the plural (or singular) of the existing title or the options. My personal preference would be [[September 11, 2001 attack]] or [[September 11, 2001 al-Qaeda attack]], but it's not a strong preference. I do think the title should be singular, as it was one coordinated effort.
| | All these must be merged into a single, comprehensive article that can be kept up-to-date in one location. Grrrr. I will make all these articles and add their merger/renaming to my todo list. [[User:Pat Palmer|Pat Palmer]] ([[User talk:Pat Palmer|talk]]) 13:42, 9 March 2024 (CST) |
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| There are at least a couple of naming questions: How should the group, and its leader, be referred to? The article inconsistently uses [[al Qaeda]] and [[al-Qaeda]], and uses [[Usama bin Ladin]], even though almost everyone other than the U.S. government uses "Osama" rather than "Usama". [[User:Anthony Argyriou|Anthony Argyriou]] 13:12, 6 July 2007 (CDT)
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| ::very good points! I prefer the "9-11" variation as more pointed than "Spetember 11" (it downplays the month -- also because 911 is the emergency phone #). Yes, "Osama" is better and I will change that. [[User:Richard Jensen|Richard Jensen]] 15:56, 6 July 2007 (CDT)
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| :::I'd prefer "9/11" to "9-11", but that messes with the mediawiki software. It'll be nice to see a good article here without having to constantly chase off the conspiracy theorists like they do at Wikipedia. [[User:Anthony Argyriou|Anthony Argyriou]] 16:52, 6 July 2007 (CDT)
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| ::I think the plural sounds better than the singular, but it's definitely better to use "September 11" rather than "9-11". [[User:Carl Jantzen|Carl Jantzen]] 09:08, 12 July 2007 (CDT)
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| ==Objections==
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| {{civil}}
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| Is there anyway we can clean this up to meet standards? [[User:Denis Cavanagh|Denis Cavanagh]] 04:12, 25 July 2007 (CDT)
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| :This article requires extensive modification to several sections, including the (unintentionally hilarious) 'World Response' section. I would like to quote "[http://en.citizendium.org/wiki?title=9-11_Attack&oldid=100133666#World_response ...The world had been accustomed to long-winded speeches about the need for actions which everyone knew would never happen. Now there was action, and the world stood in awe of America's vast military power unleashed with cold fury...]" - this section, from 12th July 2007, seems to be satire. [[User:John Stephenson|John Stephenson]] 04:48, 25 July 2007 (CDT)
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| I like Satire with the best of them but this I feel, was not deliberate satire. It needs to be cleaned up. [[User:Denis Cavanagh|Denis Cavanagh]] 05:43, 25 July 2007 (CDT)
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| == International Law and Iraq ==
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| Several places, this article says that the attack on Iraq was against international law. This is, at best, debateable. The United States had the authority to enforce the Gulf War ceas-fire, and an invasion of Iraq and removal of the Ba'ath regime was justified by Iraqi violations of the cease-fire. [[User:Anthony Argyriou|Anthony Argyriou]] 14:41, 25 July 2007 (CDT)
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| ==Taliban and the Bush administration==
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| I am unconvinced that the [http://en.citizendium.org/wiki?title=9-11_Attack&diff=100139615&oldid=100139228 edit replacing "cordial" with "strained" in the following paragraph] is justified:
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| :Afghanistan's Taliban regime had enjoyed strained relations with U.S. prior to 9-11, but its harboring of bin Laden and his associates made military action inevitable. In late 2001, American and British planes bombed the country in support of the Afghan Northern Alliance - a coalition of warlords opposed to the Taliban. Subsequently, Allied ground forces joined the attack.
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| As far as I can see, the Bush administration supported the Taliban until 9/11, and Bush's links with the Taliban via a 1997 oil pipeline deal have also been noted:
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| :''BBC News'': '[http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/world/west_asia/36735.stm Taleban to Texas for pipeline talks].' December 3rd 1997.
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| :''BBC News'': '[http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/world/west_asia/37021.stm Taleban in Texas for talks on gas pipeline].' December 4th 1997.
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| :Ted Galen Carpenter, ''Cato Institute'': '[http://www.cato.org/pub_display.php?pub_id=3556 How Washington Funded the Taliban].' August 2nd 2002. [Libertarian think-tank report.]
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| Also, I have copied the large section deleted during this edit to the [[Talk:Iraq War]] page to archive any possibly useful material there. [[User:John Stephenson|John Stephenson]] 22:05, 25 July 2007 (CDT)
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| ::Relations were bad between US and the Afghanistan government. Afg. wanted a pipeline but US did NOT approve it . That = strained. US gaved the UN $$$$ and the UN did provide lots of food for starving people, inside Afg. and in refugee camps outsde AFg. [http://usinfo.state.gov/is/Archive_Index/Humanitarian_Aid_to_the_Afghan_People-4072c45bad525.html] as part of a UN humanitarian effort, and paid farmers not to grow opium, ut that was not support for the government.
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| :::OK, I think that the Taliban signed a deal with Unocol in 1998, but the agreement was withdrawn the same year. Also, the US gave the Taliban $43 million in 2001, which doesn't sound like the sort of thing you agree with a country with whom you have strained relations. [[User:John Stephenson|John Stephenson]] 22:44, 25 July 2007 (CDT)
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| ==Immediate response==
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| Richard, please can you expand on the reasons why [http://en.citizendium.org/wiki?title=9-11_Attack&diff=100139667&oldid=100139615 you have reverted the 'immediate response' section], including the removal of references - it has now returned to the heavily biased narrative in which we are told that there was no looting, panic, and that everyone thought Rudy Guiliani was "brilliant". This does not sound like a neutral article. [[User:John Stephenson|John Stephenson]] 22:39, 25 July 2007 (CDT)
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| :::I think your comments here are mixing the edits on [http://en.citizendium.org/wiki?title=9-11_Attack&diff=100139667&oldid=100139228 both 'immediate response' and the 'Iraq' section that you deleted]. Here's some comments (ignoring your final, rather personal remark):
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| :::*Discussion - I was "being bold" by supplying some references and sobering (some) of the language. What requires extensive (prior) discussion is the deletion of major sections; this is not the done thing without prior discussion and detailed justification - see [[CZ:Professionalism]].
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| :::*Immediate Response, Guiliani as 'brilliant' - OK, then it should be presented as the opinion of the critics, rather than being used by the article itself as a description, without qualification.
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| :::*Immediate Response, looting - There were examples and claims of looting, as reported at the time - the article now says there was "no looting", "no panic", neither of which are true. I can remember the sounds and images of blood-curdling screams of people as they watched the planes hit, people running, etc...
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| :::*Iraq, "concoct" - here I agree with you, but I couldn't come up with another word that adequately conveyed the idea that the US/UK had some agenda regarding Iraq.
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| :::*Iraq, war support - your summary of what I wrote is not accurate. I edited as follows: "However, the United Kingdom was the only country whose government supplied unwavering political and military support to the USA in its plans to remove the regime of Saddam Hussein; many other countries publically supported action, but stopped short of backing an invasion." I did not say that only the UK supported the invasion. However, it is true that the UK was the only other country going in from the start, and that the world community predominantly declined to support the war. You also know that the troops send by other countries are very small - for instance, even today only the UK, Australia and South Korea have more than about 1000 troops each in the country. The Latvians, along with various others, have withdrawn.
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| :::We also now have a return to satire: "[http://en.citizendium.org/wiki?title=9-11_Attack&oldid=100139667#World_response The world had been accustomed to long-winded speeches about the need for actions which everyone knew would never happen. Now there was action, and the world stood in awe of America's vast military power unleashed with cold fury.]" And: "[http://en.citizendium.org/wiki?title=9-11_Attack&oldid=100139667#Overthrow_of_Taliban_government_in_Afghanistan (Bush) blamed al-Qaeda, whose goal was to impose its radical beliefs on the entire world... Bush issued an ultimatum: the Taliban must immediately turn over the al-Qaeda leadership to American justice, or share their fate... he promised to systematically destroy the terrorists—to hunt them down cave-by-cave and destroy them everywhere in the world. No government would be allowed to harbor them... Bush called on Congress to declare war on terrorism, and it responded enthusiastically. The nation had united.]" [[User:John Stephenson|John Stephenson]] 23:18, 25 July 2007 (CDT)
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| Richard, it is ''completely'' needless to describe Guliani's acts as "brilliant", and we both know full-well that all that will do is prod others to introduce contradictory authorities who disagree (and I have heard plenty), introducing a needless diversion into the article. "Brilliant" is mere opinion, since there is no objective criteria for what is and is not "brilliant". Just describe factually what the man did and let the reader make up his or her own mind. In fact, just describe factually what ''happened'' on 9-11. This, of all articles, should assiduously avoid posturing, needless adjectives, statements of opinion no matter who they are from, hyperbolic language, etc. Don't you think what I am saying is reasonable? —[[User:Stephen Ewen|Stephen Ewen]] [[User talk:Stephen Ewen|(Talk)]] 00:09, 26 July 2007 (CDT)
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| :Richard, see [http://en.citizendium.org/wiki?title=9-11_Attack&diff=100139714&oldid=100139667 this edit] I did. I agree that your history writing is engaging with phrases like "Bush...found his voice"; "one of the most well received speeches in a century"; "blamed"; "radical"; "The nation had united". But with ''this'' article? I tried to make it just state facts. —[[User:Stephen Ewen|Stephen Ewen]] [[User talk:Stephen Ewen|(Talk)]] 00:38, 26 July 2007 (CDT)
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| :::the article deals with an extreme psychological criris and has to try to capture the mood of the people at the time. It was not an ordinary event. Statements like like "Bush...found his voice"; "one of the most well received speeches in a century"; "blamed"; "radical"; "The nation had united" are factually accurate and try to capture that mood. [[User:Richard Jensen|Richard Jensen]] 02:06, 8 November 2007 (CST)
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| ::::See [http://en.citizendium.org/wiki?title=9-11_Attack&diff=100139667&oldid=100139615 this edit] - Richard has put back the bias into the 'immediate response' section, including the bit about Guiliani being "brilliant" and the assertion, which can't possibly be true, that "there was no panic, looting, or despair". [P.S. I did think you'd just re-inserted this now, Richard - sorry - but it remains in the narrative, which I think is problematic.] [[User:John Stephenson|John Stephenson]] 03:31, 8 November 2007 (CST)
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| ::I think the consensus is that Guiliani's response was brilliant--he has made it a centerpiece of his presidential campaign and his critics have not challenged him on this. As opposed to above average or inept or whatever. The no panic/looting was reported over and over again by reporters looking for panic or looting. [[User:Richard Jensen|Richard Jensen]] 03:36, 8 November 2007 (CST)
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| :::True or not, it's biased - it is true that Guiliani was widely praised for his handling of the crisis, but talking about brilliance is journalistic, not encyclopedic. [[User:John Stephenson|John Stephenson]] 03:38, 8 November 2007 (CST)
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| ::::It is not "biased"--it is straight factual reporting on the consensus of experts, which is what an encyclopedia reports. Look for example at the recent ABC News retrospective: "The mayor was a powerful presence. Images of him covered in soot at ground zero were broadcast to the world, reinforcing the sense that he was in charge. Time magazine made him "Man of the Year," and he was quickly dubbed "America's Mayor." Even his harshest critics agree this was his finest moment.[http://abcnews.go.com/Nightline/story?id=3589767&page=1][[User:Richard Jensen|Richard Jensen]] 03:43, 8 November 2007 (CST)
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| ::::You are quoting journalists quoting opinion. My interepretation of the neutrality policy of CZ is that it attempts to avoid disguising subjective opinion as 'fact'. [[User:John Stephenson|John Stephenson]] 03:51, 8 November 2007 (CST)
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| == needs a different title ==
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| I think this is a odd title of the article. What are some other options? [[User:Tom Kelly|Tom Kelly]] 01:28, 26 July 2007 (CDT)
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| :How about [[September 11, 2001 attacks on the United States]]?--[[User:John M. Adriatico|John M. Adriatico]] 01:41, 8 November 2007 (CST)
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| ::a short snappy title that is immediately understood will do the job. The rhetoric in recent years speaks to the "9-11 attacks" and the article reflects that. [[User:Richard Jensen|Richard Jensen]] 01:58, 8 November 2007 (CST)
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| == Who did it? ==
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| The 19 hijackers were all identified. Their status as Arabs was essential to the story. (the text closely follows the report of the 9-11 commission). [[User:Richard Jensen|Richard Jensen]] 03:27, 8 November 2007 (CST)
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| :Their status as extremists and where they came from are essential, but calling them 'Arabs' is unacceptable: it implies they did it *because* they were Arabs. The edit you have just made is actually worse than the original, which only mentioned their ethnicity in passing. You have put it at the forefront. Another point: al-Qaeda is not a single group, directed by one man. It is a whole series of groups with different aims. It would be better to say they were "affiliated" with al-Qaeda rather than talking about membership, as though it's one organisation. [[User:John Stephenson|John Stephenson]] 03:36, 8 November 2007 (CST)
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