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| {{archive box|auto=long}} | | {{Box|See [[Talk:Vietnam War/Archive 1|Talk Archives One]] or [[Talk:Vietnam War/Archive 2|Talk Archives Two]] for earlier talk.}} |
| This badly needs copyediting. --[[User:Larry Sanger|Larry Sanger]] 10:02, 15 September
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| ==Definition and title== | | == OK, where do we go from here? == |
| ''first note needs to be read in the context that a substantial amount of comments are now in an archive''.
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| If it hasn't already been pointed out in the above extremely long page, I'd like to point out that the opening sentence is unacceptable. Obviously, letting one of the parties to the war define it violates neutrality. [[User:Peter Jackson|Peter Jackson]] 11:37, 18 November 2008 (UTC)
| | Oh Brave New World after the archiving, which has such wondrous things in it. [[User:Howard C. Berkowitz|Howard C. Berkowitz]] 21:01, 17 August 2009 (UTC) |
| | :keep reading friend. |
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| :Peter, I agree. Please look back a few months when this was a single massive article, by an author that was insistent — and explicit on presenting things from a U.S., not even South Vietnamese, perspective. The major effort toward neutrality, for both practical and personality reasons, first consisted of breaking up the main article into manageable subarticles, and working on neutrality there.
| | ==Green Box== |
| | The green box at the top of the article adds some necessary context to this article, but there is a chronological gaffe. The box says "[[Indochinese revolution|First Indochina War]] covers closely the anticolonial war against France, with interruptions for the events of the Second World War." But the First Indochina War starts ''after'' World War II. So how is that an "interruption?" Please fix. |
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| :This individual is no longer involved, and it is quite appropriate to look for a more neutral introduction, as well as still pulling out some of the later and less neutral text into subarticles. If my citing of Moore and Galloway in the Vietnamese museum doesn't exemplify there are multiple views, I don't know what can. Sooner or later, it will be necessary to come to consensus on a better set of names, certainly for the major phases, and possibly the articles as a whole. I can take Vietnamese military history back to the Trung sisters in the first century CE, but I'd prefer someone else work on the even earlier history in my sandbox. Such a person should read Vietnamese.
| | Regarding the remainder of the box, isn't it possible to discuss these ''related articles'' on the [[Vietnam War/Related Articles|Related Articles]] page? I think that it would make more sense. [[User:Russell D. Jones|Russell D. Jones]] 21:12, 17 August 2009 (UTC) |
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| :So, we agree there is a problem. I am perfectly open to a signficantly revised opening, and a controlled renaming of articles -- the comma-rich convention was idiosyncratic. Nevertheless, I would ask for close cooperation in renaming, so as not to break links. I probably know them better than anyone at this point, and I still make mistakes and lose text. | | {|border="1" |
| | |style="background:lightgreen"|''This is a major second-level article for numerous articles about an extremely complex situation from 1962 to 1975. [[Vietnam wars]] covers the context of conflict between 1868 and 1999; there are separate articles on earlier history. There was anti-French activity, but the main [[First Indochina War]] came after [[Indochina and the Second World War|the Second World War]]. This ends in 1975 with the fall of South Vietnam, but other wars continue in the [[Vietnam wars]] article.'' |
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| :May I ask that you look at [[Battle of Ia Drang]] as something that I wrote, trying very hard to represent at least three standpoints: North Vietnamese, South Vietnamese, and American. I'm still working on obtaining some interview text, as, for example, not just the emotions but also the tactics of the PAVN at LZ X-ray.
| | ==Headings== |
| | I'm going to recommend also that the heading "Regional activity before South Vietnamese independence" find a shorter title so that the TOC isn't so wide. [[User:Russell D. Jones|Russell D. Jones]] 21:12, 17 August 2009 (UTC) |
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| :I desperately want proposals, and there is so much to fix on the detailed level that I hope you have some time to make suggestions at the topmost level. If you get beyond the first sections, I think you'll see the subarticle structure and other text that provide the basis for more neutral writing. If you are interested, please help.
| | == First Section == |
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| :Please focus not on the old definition in this page, but on the more recent work in the main page. [[User:Howard C. Berkowitz|Howard C. Berkowitz]] 12:17, 18 November 2008 (UTC) | | The last sentence in the first paragraph should wrap up the lede, to wit, it should explain why the topic ends in 1975 (i.e., south vietnamese surrender). I'd also like to drop the reference to the first century conflict with China; it's just too far removed in time to be relevant. It could probably be mentioned paranthetically: "... but to a long history of Chinese attempts to control the region (going back to the first century)." "This article focuses on ..." I'm not a fan of self-referentiality. The famous photograph of the helicopter on the roof during the evacuation in 1975, I've heard was ''not'' the U.S. embassy itself. The paragraph dealing with weather is really out of place here. It's interesting and important information, but it seems out of place here. |
| | Last, the first section should also mention that the Vietnamese call this the "American War." |
| | [[User:Russell D. Jones|Russell D. Jones]] 21:31, 17 August 2009 (UTC) |
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| == change to Intro ==
| | :Yes, I too read the other day that the evacuation was from a neighboring building. Maybe in an obit of the guy who took the photo? I think that's the source.... [[User:Hayford Peirce|Hayford Peirce]] 21:59, 17 August 2009 (UTC) |
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| Existing lead:
| | ::We're all correct about the helicopters. Indeed, the most commonly used photograph is from a nearby CIA building, but there was also desperation at the Embassy and elsewhere. |
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| :Since there is a current state and government of [[Vietnam]], with full diplomatic representation including participation in international organizations, the final authorities on the definition of '''Vietnam War''' would appear to be the Vietnamese. They tend to refer to the Wars (plural) of Vietnam, often referring to a period starting sometime after 1959 and extending to 1975 as the "American War". Considering actions in [[Laos]] and [[Cambodia]] also confuse the terminology; not all the fighting there bore directly on Vietnam or [[French Indochina]]. | | ::Let me think about China; some reference is important. |
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| :Without trying to name the wars, the key timeline events in modern history are: | | ::I moved the weather to the beginning of large-scale combat. [[User:Howard C. Berkowitz|Howard C. Berkowitz]] 22:04, 17 August 2009 (UTC) |
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| Proposed change to lead:
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| :The '''Vietnam War''' is a term used to describe a series of conflicts that took place from 1959 to 1975, between [[South Vietnam]], [[America]] and their allies, and the communist nations allied with [[North Vietnam]]. In the modern-day state of [[Vietnam]] the wars are often described in plural, or simply as the "American War". | | :::Long time coming.... I've reworked this whole section into a lede and an "overview" section. [[User:Russell D. Jones|Russell D. Jones]] 21:40, 19 October 2012 (UTC) |
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| :The war in Vietnam was initially fought between South Vietnam (with non-mobile backing from America) and the communist North Vietnamese, later supported by its communist allies. America fully mobilised in 1964, but their advice and support, as well as covert operations, had been in place for several years. The military actions in [[Laos]] and [[Cambodia]] also complicate matters, as not all the fighting there bore directly on Vietnam or [[French Indochina]]. Americas involvement in the wars were part of an anti-communist policy called [[Containment]], which was an early element of the [[Cold War]].
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| :Without naming the wars, the key timeline events in modern history are: | |
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| My only real issue with the lead as it stands is that it is not encyclopedic language, and could cover more in less space. I'm mainly trying to get a better format, rather than get the facts exact.--[[User:Matt Lewis|Matt Lewis]] 18:47, 8 December 2008 (UTC)
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| :There's no problem in improving the language, as it is a difficult topic, with a title that inherently is ambiguous. If you accept the premise that the Vietnamese are the real authority on the wars of their area, however, one cannot limit the definition such that the war starts in 1959. At a very minimum, one has to go back at least to a declaration of independence in 1946, followed by the revolution against the French, and it's wise to go back to the French conquest in the 19th century. Since the Vietnamese themselves make a point, in their active museums and histories, to go through two millenia of fighting with the Chinese, the Wars (plural) go back, at least, to the Trung Sisters.
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| :Not reading Vietnamese, I can't go much before that; there literally are too many dragons to track.
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| :Now, I'm perfectly open to other wording that covers, at the very least, the modern wars, but I cannot see a lead that does not address the French colony, the resistance to it starting around 1930, and many things prior to 1959. [[Dien Bien Phu]] (1954) is as iconic to Vietnamese as Trafalgar and Waterloo are to Britons and French, Yorktown and Appomattox to Americans, or Tsushima Strait to Japanese.
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| :I understand that you are focused on wording, but the proposed wording has substantial problems of fact unless the wars are seen as purely a sideshow of the Cold War. "Wars of Vietnam" would probably be a better title, but there is too much to change. Further, there really isn't a magic starting point in 1959, other than a decision by the North Vietnamese Politburo to change the means of achieving its existing political goals.
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| :By the way, I am really delighted that you are reading this; I absolutely welcome collaboration, since I've spent a great deal of time trying to clean up previous material that was not amenable to collaboration. When I look at this article, I am reminded of the temperance delegation that called on [[Winston Churchill]], to lecture him that they understood that all the brandy he drank during the [[Second World War]] would come up to (spot on wall). He pointed for confirmation, they nodded, and he muttered,
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| :<blockquote>So little have we done, so much have we to do.</blockquote>
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| [[User:Howard C. Berkowitz|Howard C. Berkowitz]] 18:59, 8 December 2008 (UTC)
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| :Not being an expert (I know broadly as much about 'Vietnam' as your average educated Brit - perhaps a little bit more), the above is possibly the limit on what I can do without a lot of further research (I don't really have the time here, alas). Is it possible for you to work on what I have written? I tried to convery Vietnam as a modern state which has its own definition of the war.
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| :My main question would be; Are you happy with beginning "The '''Vietnam War''' is a term used to describe a series of conflicts that took place from 1959 to 1975,"? You could change “used” to "most commonly meant”. Could you add the additional periods to the lead?
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| :The problem for me here could be the title (which you alude to) - to me "Vietnam war" conveys America (or the US, if that is better) fighting the Vietcong, and the Cold War in general. It is great to extend upon that definition, but as it is such a 'common name' I don't think we should lose site of the principal dates etc re North Vietnam.
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| :If the way you are taking the article requires a name change, perhaps you might be best to instigate one? I have a personal idea of "core articles" in my mind, and I stopped at this subject I suppose, as I see it as one. --[[User:Matt Lewis|Matt Lewis]] 19:31, 8 December 2008 (UTC)
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| ::I apologize for the length of the reply, but I know no good way to make it simpler -- although I'm open to suggestions.
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| ::A name change would be good, but it's not something I'd like to take on without much discussion. By focusing on, for example, 1959-1975, it immediately brings up very different names from all sides — and there were more than two — which decidedly have a non-neutral flavor. There is a saying in the U.S., for example, that people from the North speak of the little disagreement between 1861 and 1865 as the "Civil War", the genteel sort in Virginia refer to the "Late Unpleasantness between the States", and the deep south may say "War of Yankee Aggression". We run into that problem now, with the usage of [[Iraq War]] versus [[Operation IRAQI FREEDOM]].
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| ::To answer your direct question, I am not at all comfortable with "The '''Vietnam War''' is a term used to describe a series of conflicts that took place from 1959 to 1975," 1959 is a problematic starting date as it refers to a secret policy decision and start of logistical buildup, rather than combat. 1954 might be a little better, in that it does define conflict between North and South Vietnam, even at an ideological level. Alternatively, if one wants to include U.S. combat support, that could start in 1962, with direct combat in 1964.
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| ::""Vietnam war" conveys America (or the US, if that is better) fighting the Vietcong, and the Cold War in general." Yes, and it conveys that to many people — but exclusively in the West. Even "Vietcong" is a quite arguable term. To take a parallel from your side of the pond, consider the distinction between Sinn Fein and the IRA (let's not get into ''which'' IRA). Quite a few analysts suggest that an equivalent relationship existed between the [[National Front for the Liberation of South Vietnam]] (NLF) and its fighting arm,the VC. Others argue that the NLF and VC were merely a sham for the North Vietnamese government. It is clear that the tanks that took Saigon in 1975 were not Viet Cong, but [[People's Army of Viet Nam]] (i.e., regular army of the North). The VC/NLF, for that matter, suffered immense casualties in 1968, and many of its surviving leaders were later purged by their "own side" because they were not part of the Northern decisionmaking structure. More complex than the situation on the Emerald Isle, however, is that no major external powers were involved between the British and Irish nationalists (of various flavors).
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| ::A real challenge here is whether we want to preserve "popular opinion", which often is an oversimplification, or convey the reality. Perhaps there is a brief way to state the "popular definition" in the introduction, and identify it as a Cold War oversimplification.
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| ::The immediate problem then becomes how to refer to what some call the Indochina War, certainly between 1946 and 1954, although many Vietnamese will take it back to the original resistance to French invasion, or to the nationalist fighting groups that formed during the [[Second World War]].
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| ::I don't have a simple answer. May I ask you to look at the major subarticles covering time periods, and see if they make sense as titles? (e.g., [[Joint warfare in South Vietnam 1964-1968]], [[Fall of South Vietnam]]). There are still problems with things that essentially were major parallel campaigns, such as ground operations in the South versus air operations outside the South. [[User:Howard C. Berkowitz|Howard C. Berkowitz]] 19:57, 8 December 2008 (UTC)
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| :::I'm big on main articles, with subs - some of the above seems to be about content perhaps? I must say I have to see Citizendium as a Western encycolpedia, which covers things as objectively as possible - but is written in English for an English-speaking West. Does CZ have policy on this? I do like Wikipedia’s four paragraph intro format - I often used to focus on improving intros at WP (always per the 'common reader' and 'encyclopedic language' guidelines). We don't have the info boxes here to help us categorise of course.
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| :::I think it is fair to say that "Vietnam War" is the commonly-used term for 1959-1975. I would suggest starting with that as a basis, and using sub articles and clever prose to cover everything surrounding it. If not, we simply have to change the name IMO - or it could be kind of deadlock re progress. Using [[Vietnam War (1959-1975)]] does not prevent us providing background to the period in the article (nor does any title). I don't mind that format at all – as long as Vietnam War redirects to it.
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| :::Points we could cover in an Intro of Vietnam War
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| :::*Think about "see also" hatnotes. Cold War etc? (I always felt at Wikipedia that it needed the related articles at the top - CZ might do well to sort out a table-based system here).
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| :::*Convey that Vietnam War is a commonly-used term, that has ambiguities and can cover broad picture.
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| :::*Show commonly-used boundaries of term, and explain that it is more.
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| ::::*Define west/east point of view.
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| :::*Explain parties involved.
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| :::*Briefly cover the most significant events and aspects.
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| :::*Have closing paragraph explaining legacy.
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| :::The above could stand whatever the title is.--[[User:Matt Lewis|Matt Lewis]] 20:49, 8 December 2008 (UTC)
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| ::::As to Matt's point about this being a Western encyclopedia, for an English-speaking West, I don't think that is the policy. Without researching the exact wording, it is probably correct to say it is an English-language encyclopedia -- but not culturally or ideologically specific beyond that, indeed with a goal of not being culturally or ideologically based. The Neutrality Policy, as I understand it (pictures Larry hysterically laughing at me), says that the different views need to be covered. In this particular case, I can bring myself (laugh away, Larry) to cover pretty much all the views in a way that their holders might consider sympathetic, or at least understanding -- as well as showing their conflicts. [[User:Howard C. Berkowitz|Howard C. Berkowitz]] 21:37, 8 December 2008 (UTC)
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| ::::Would the bulleted list of dates be a start for an index of subarticles? It still would need some introductory and explanatory text, such as the parties involved. Even "parties involved" gets complex, as I mentioned with the NLF/VC/PAVN/DRV factions, to say nothing of the French and VNQDD and Chinese and others. Only recently did I myself learn that a British force, in 1945, got French paratroopers out of prison and helped them overthrow a provisional government in the North. [[User:Howard C. Berkowitz|Howard C. Berkowitz]] 21:37, 8 December 2008 (UTC)
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| :::::I certainly don't have an answer, or even a suggestion as to what should be done, but let me stick my nose in briefly to say that the lede para. is probably the worst one in all of CZ. I understand the difficulties involved, but this para. is just like a chat/discussion that should be on the Talk page. Nuke it, maybe, and start from scratch. Break the article is 2, 3, 4, 5, 6, or however many it takes, maybe. Do *something* Or just move the whole article to Cold Storage.... [[User:Hayford Peirce|Hayford Peirce]] 21:00, 8 December 2008 (UTC)
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| ===Nuclear weapons, no, not in Vietnam (although that's a subtopic)===
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| [trying to keep indentation at a level my eyes can track]
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| Hayford, that is a nuclear strike to which I would not object. You know a fair bit of the background of the rewrite of what was here, and my chief goals were to introduce neutrality and make the article maintainable for just the sort of discussion going on at this point. One of my major concerns, which well might justify a change to the right name(s), whatever they may be, was to get it away from what an original author had called US-centric to something that actually captures not just aspects of the Cold War, but Asian-Western perspectives.
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| It can be fixed without going to Cold Storage. Fixing it will be a major job that ''needs'' collaboration. If this can't be put into usable form, it's going to be just as hard to deal with other things as complex as the [[Second World War]] or the [[Holocaust]], neither of which are well organized. Note that I am ''not'' a serious American Civil War, War of Yankee Aggression, Late Unpleasantness between the States, etc., student, and will be happy to let others fight ''that'' one. (e.g., "just what do you mean that the South lost?")
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| I kept the title for continuity. Personally, I might prefer "Wars of Vietnam". There is a bulleted list of major dates that might, indeed, be turned into a table of major events. Most of the first-level headings could easily become standalone articles. There really, really isn't a single thing, even from a U.S. perspective, that can be called "the" Vietnam War. Those of us who remember the start of large-scale combat in 1964 were completely unaware that U.S., and U.S. backed forces, had been in active fighting for at least two years. Substantial U.S. training and support went back to 1955, although this was fairly systematically kept from the public and Congress. Incidentally, I don't necessarily disagree with some of the decisions made back then, at least from the perspectives of the decisionmakers, what they believed, and what they knew (and didn't know). [[User:Howard C. Berkowitz|Howard C. Berkowitz]] 21:37, 8 December 2008 (UTC)
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| :I understand the difficulties. WP handles it by breaking it into First V. War, etc. As for 1964, seems to me that I was pretty aware of fighting having gone on for several years already. Maybe because I was of prime draft-age at the time.... [[User:Hayford Peirce|Hayford Peirce]] 21:51, 8 December 2008 (UTC)
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| Background can always be given, whatever the title. How about:
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| [[Vietnam Wars (1959-1975)]]?
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| Other ideas:
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| [[Wars of Vietnam, Cambodia and Laos]]
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| [[Wars of Vietnam, Cambodia and Laos (1959-1975)]]
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| [[Second Indochina War]]
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| [[Second Indochina War (1959-1975)]]
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| [[Second Indochina War (Vietnam, Cambodia and Laos)]]
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| [[Cold Wars: Second Indochina War]]
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| [[Cold Wars: Vietnam, Cambodia and Laos]], etc
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| One concern is that without some confining dates, we may not be able to progress on the article - unless a suitable all-purpose title is found. Even then, covering too much could be hard to pull off. It's a bit like one of those 'classical' history books that are presented as a narrative (it currently even reads like that), but online encyclopedias don't really lend to that approach. --[[User:Matt Lewis|Matt Lewis]] 22:09, 8 December 2008 (UTC)
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| ::Matt, ''to the Vietnamese'', it does read like a narrative. Whether or not we replicate that, I think it's valuable to get across, to a Western audience, that the key participants ''do'' think of it as a continuum. They actively celebrate the first century rebellion of the Two Trung Sisters. I don't think one can begin to understand Sino-Vietnamese relations — the Cold Warriors certainly didn't — unless one realizes how long the two sides have been fighting (and occasionally loving). I'm not talking about esoterica such as how Mao thought the [[General Offensive-General Uprising]] model was completely insane.
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| ::I would encourage using the bulleted list as a starting point, and perhaps turning it into a table with articles in it. Unfortunately, I don't know enough about table formatting to know if it would be possible to have merged cells that spanned date rows or columns, to deal with multiple names/emphases that covered some of the same years.
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| ::You may remember, Hayford, that a previous author involved in the first version was adamant about the title, and the US-centricity. At the time, the battle wasn't worth fighting. Perhaps even a graphic showing overlapping years and dates might help; I had to do something like that in the specialized area of [[communications intelligence]] in Vietnam; here's an example from [[National Security Agency and Southeast Asia, 1954-1961]]:
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| [[Image:SIGINT-SEA-1959-1963.png| thumb | Significant events, 1959-1963. Hanyok is the source above the years and Gilbert below them.]]
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| :::"Ah, yes, I remember it (and him) well...." [[User:Hayford Peirce|Hayford Peirce]] 22:45, 8 December 2008 (UTC)
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| ::This probably isn't the place to argue specific dates. To me, 1959-1975 doesn't make as much sense as either 1954-1975 (the whole active mess from partition), 1964-1972 (U.S. combat involvement), 1972-1975 (South Vietnam on its own), etc.
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| ::Again, I'm not wedded to any specific title as long as it's based on some reasonable set of events. "Scholars" don't always agree, and I see no reason to be drawn into unsolved academic debates. What I do suggest is looking at the list of bulleted dates and see if any consensus of periods drops out of them; yes, there is some stuff prior to 1945 that is not shown.[[User:Howard C. Berkowitz|Howard C. Berkowitz]] 22:38, 8 December 2008 (UTC)
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| :::I myself would probably go for [[Vietnam Wars, 1954-1975]], since I think the article has to begin (at some point) when the French handed things over to Dopey Dwight (at least in that case) and Frozen (ideas) Foster.... [[User:Hayford Peirce|Hayford Peirce]] 22:45, 8 December 2008 (UTC)
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| ::::While that still doesn't cover other periods, it makes a great deal of sense. After all, until 1954, there wasn't officially (from a Western standpoint) a Vietnam. Even splitting into Vietnam Wars(plural) and Indochinese War(s) has good logic. 1972-1975 is also substantially different. Remember, I was in semi-stealth mode when A Certain Person was adamant about the title.
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| ::::Speaking of Dopey Dwight, I was amazed to discover today that JFK actually was a better golfer. OTOH, my opinion of DDE has gone up over the years, still very aware of his flaws. His role in getting the wilder nuclear advocates under control in 1959 or so is little known; see [[SIOP]] and [[George Kistiakowsky]]. For that matter, he sat on Arthur Radford, who wanted the U.S. to use nuclear weapons at [[Dien Bien Phu]], in the incredibly named Operation VULTURE. [[User:Howard C. Berkowitz|Howard C. Berkowitz]] 22:57, 8 December 2008 (UTC)
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