Talk:Theoretical biology

Article start

Starting independent article on 'theoretical biology'. Original page had no content, only a redirect to Mathematical biology. Methinks Theoretical biology encompasses more than Mathematical biology and warrants an independent article. --Anthony.Sebastian 23:15, 1 October 2008 (CDT)

Formatting

Please remove the spaces that precede footnotes. In proper style, there should be no such spaces. --Larry Sanger 14:46, 12 October 2008 (UTC)

I removed all the spaces preceding footnotes. --Anthony.Sebastian 22:00, 12 October 2008 (UTC)

Larry, regarding your remark that the inventor of <blockquote></blockquote> needs to brush up re whether to italicize indented blockquotes: In the Intro, I show an alternate form of blockquote, sans italics, font-size slightly larger than the miniscule one used by standard blockquote, and bolded. Any objections using that format throughout? --Anthony.Sebastian 22:00, 12 October 2008 (UTC)

Tom Morris might object. --Anthony.Sebastian 22:00, 12 October 2008 (UTC)

I most certainly will, and in the strongest possible terms. I removed all that formatting crapola from the article - it looks silly. If the Citizendium doesn't look right, it shouldn't be fixed by adding custom HTML to specific articles, but by getting the tech people to change the stylesheet globally. On the Web, it is good practice to follow the separation of presentation and content. This applies here. Blockquotes (marked with a blockquote element or not) should look consistent across the whole article. We just write the material for the pages - the style is site-wide. There's aboslutely no reason why the block quotes should be dark blue and larger on Theoretical biology and nowhere else. Consistency and content/style separation are important. --Tom Morris 22:33, 12 October 2008 (UTC)

Tom, I respect you for your interest, and for your strong feelings about consistency. I regret our disagreement on this 'blockquote' issue. I, too, have a great interest in the quality of CZ, in respect of both content and presentation. I support the idea of consistency of presentation within articles and certainly a foundation of consistency among articles. In the case of Theoretical biology, Larry has already asked for consistency in eliminating spaces preceding footnote designators, and clearly he intends that to apply 'among articles'. In addition, he has commented to the effect that the <blockquote></blockquote> function lacks quality, specifically that it italicizes an indented blockquote whereas it should not. I agree. But I submit that the <blockquote></blockquote> function also lacks quality in virtue of its reduced font-size, which deemphasizes the quote when we put it in to emphasize a point. I agree the font-size of the blockquote needn't equal that of the font-size of the main text, and think a 10-15% reduction sufficient to help set it off from the main text, which the right-and-left indentations also help do. Bolding seems appropriate, and a little color can only help the emphasis. For long blockquotes, I like Gareth Leng's idea of putting them in text boxes.

I do not advocate that every CZ article utilize my attempt in Theoretical biology at improving the presentation of blockquotes, though I do advocate consistency within the article. CZ still calls itself 'beta', so honest attempts to make changes do not seem inappropriate.

Thank you again for your earnest thoughts. I hope others will weigh in. --Anthony.Sebastian 01:05, 13 October 2008 (UTC)

I am puzzled. Why aren't we simply using : for indented quotations? If there are very, very long quotations, using special box format might make sense. But standard style as explained e.g. in the Chicago Manual of Style (if I am remembering correctly) is to indent them, use the same font size, no italics, no bold.

And, Tom--typography is never worth "the strongest possible terms." :-) --Larry Sanger 10:43, 13 October 2008 (UTC)

The strongest possible terms that the context allows, then. --Tom Morris 12:51, 13 October 2008 (UTC)

Larry, if we use : for indented quotations, we get left indent only. Personally, I prefer left-and-right indent as the <blockquote></blockquote> function gives. I use a slightly smaller font-size than main text, because bolding makes font-size appear larger; I prefer bold to emphasize the quote. I have used a similar format in numerous articles that I initiated and developed — planning to go back to them and remove italics — with no comments except Gareth Leng's idea of putting long quotes and excerpts in text boxes, to which I agree.

Larry, I suggest we allow some blockquote flexibility 'among articles', but ask for consistency 'within articles'. (We do that for citation styles.) Standards for blockquotes: left-and-right indent; no italics; font-fize equal to or only slightly smaller than main text. Bolding for emphasis optional, with consistency within articles. My HTML code is trivial and could be posted in CZ:Blockquotes. --Anthony.Sebastian 19:46, 13 October 2008 (UTC)

If you think that left-and-right indent is preferable, we should change that at the stylesheet level. We spend years advocating for CSS, so that if, say, we decide that we don't like how blockquotes look, we can change one file on the server and the whole site changes. 'Within article' consistency is no consistency at all. It's a recipe for anarchy, and is completely insane. --Tom Morris 19:51, 13 October 2008 (UTC)

Regarding blockquotes

All: Please review the format of the blockquote in the Introduction. I propose to render all the blockquotes in this article with the same format. Please weigh in, and offer any suggestions you might have. I outlined my thoughts on this in the Talk item preceding this. --Anthony.Sebastian 01:04, 13 October 2008 (UTC)

That's not how it works. There is absolutely no reason why quotes should be dark blue and bold on Theoretical biology and on no other article. If you want to change how quotes look, you need to argue for it on a general basis, and get the agreement of the community, and have it changed at the stylesheet level. If you want to show different ways that you think quotes should look, mock them up in your User space, not on a public article then ask the community for feedback. Also, if you look at the markup, the way you've done it is very much not how it should be done. –Tom Morris 19:28, 13 October 2008 (UTC)

I agree with you, Tom, but could you please calm down a little?  :-) It seems you're upset. Please don't be. Anthony is an extremely reasonable guy, maybe reasonable to a fault if that's possible! --Larry Sanger 20:18, 13 October 2008 (UTC)

I'd like to hear from other Citizens here. I'm inclined to think we should have a uniform standard about block quotations. --Larry Sanger 20:25, 13 October 2008 (UTC)

Some comments

I assume Derek Harkness coded how the current Quotes look, i.e. italicised and smaller font. I kind of like how they currently look, although the size might be a little on the small side.

I don't recall how Gareth used the boxes exactly, possibly on the Life article? Some quotes are mentioned tangentially in the text and in those instances a box, expecially for long quotes, might be useful.

For consistency I do agree we need to decide what we are going to do and code them in a CSS stylesheet. Chris Day 20:26, 13 October 2008 (UTC)