Talk:French words in English

(See also my talk.) I've removed 'aileron' because it is not italicised & has an obvious pronunciation; similarly with menagerie. Puisne is not italicised by my Oxford, and I didn't know the pron: it appears to be *pûnì, a bit like the French puni...? Ro Thorpe 14:22, 16 March 2008 (CDT)

Okay, what about demimondaine? And "honi soit qui mal y pense"? Although uttered by a Brit, so improbably....Hayford Peirce 14:33, 16 March 2008 (CDT)

aileron

Speak fer yourself, John Alden. I've been flying on airplanes for, oh, 58 years now, and I don't have Klue as to how it's pronounced! Hayford Peirce 14:36, 16 March 2008 (CDT)

PS -- you take out "aileron" but leave in "fusilage", a far more common word?! This don't myke sense, myte! Hayford Peirce 14:45, 16 March 2008 (CDT)

An architectural word and I've not seen it italicised, but how about filigrée?

Puisne is pronounced 'puny' (I really need to learn how to write pronunciations like you, Ro); it's just italicised all over some of my law books and originates from 'puis' and 'né', so I didn't know if that counted. Must be a British thing how the pronunciation changed.

And I am completely poaching this from a Suede song, but is the term savoir-faire used a lot in English?Louise Valmoria 14:40, 16 March 2008 (CDT)

Yes, it's used a lot. It should be included.... Hayford Peirce 14:45, 16 March 2008 (CDT)

'Filigree' strikes me as being too anglicised, like 'pedigree'. Ro Thorpe 13:49, 17 March 2008 (CDT)

Aileron is pronounced aileron, sez my dicshnry

Just catching up with the comments, & Hayford's running commentary in the histoire. My prons are based on typical Inglish spelling, so Messrs can be rendered as 'messers', suits any pronunciation. If you want to have a go... Ro Thorpe 16:39, 16 March 2008 (CDT)

I've been totally baffled by this word ever since I was about 12 years old and first encounted it in the very early Ellery Queen mystery novels. It was always written Mssrs., and so mentally I have always thought of it as being Messers, to rhyme with Hairdressers. Thanks for confirming my childish decision.... Hayford Peirce 16:57, 16 March 2008 (CDT)

Yeah, but is that "ale" as in "my old ailing momma likes to drink ale" or "elle" as in "Elle et Lui"? It's a mystery word to me -- so I never pronounce it outloud. Hayford Peirce 16:59, 16 March 2008 (CDT)

Glad to confirm your childish decision. Yes, there are always words like that aren't there, & aileron is one of mine, too. My Learner's Dictionary with the IPA confirms it as the sound I call â as in âil and âle. So should you ever need to pronounce it out loud (idea for a short story?), you can Be Bold. Ro Thorpe 17:11, 16 March 2008 (CDT)

My first reaction was 'M. Hayford est un boulevardier confit'? But then I re-read...Well, I can't find confit in English, nor coin-coin in French - corner to corner? Ro Thorpe 19:31, 16 March 2008 (CDT)

Can't find boulevardier in English either. I did think of boulevard earlier, & then forgot it. Perhaps we'd be safer with that? Ro Thorpe 19:36, 16 March 2008 (CDT)

Geez, that's funny. My Merriam-Webster 11th Edition, the standard medium-size 'Merkin dictionary, has "boulevardier" as showing up in 1871 as "a frequenter of the Parisian boulevards, broadly: MAN-ABOUT-TOWN". (Wearing, probably, a boutonniere, or with a LAVALIERE around his neck. By the way, just below "boulevardier" is bouleversement. Food for thought.... As for "coin-coin", isn't that the noise that French ducks make before they're turned into confit? As for "confit", it too is in the same dictionary, with a 1951 entry. In the sort of restaurants I go to about half the time, not necessarily French, but moderately hip, chic, with-it, whatever, there has *always* been for the last 5 or 10 years, a "confit" somewhere on the menu. Maybe "Spinach salad with shredded duck confit," "pizza with mozzarella and duck confit," etc. etc. It's part of 'Merkin restaurant talk BUT probably 99% of the people who order it don't really know what the word means.... Hayford Peirce 20:23, 16 March 2008 (CDT)

Well, if the Merkins use 'em...Now I come to think of it, we had coin-coin in school French. And confit is short for confiture, isn't it? Pronunciations more or less? Ro Thorpe 10:27, 17 March 2008 (CDT)

I think if you have a non-French speaking 'Merkin waiter or waitress, they will ask if you want the "Kon-fee", with the Kon as in Kon-tiki, long ee, and no T. Geez, even fancy delis and meatmarkets in San Francisco sell the stuff....Hayford Peirce 10:38, 17 March 2008 (CDT)

I should have amplified: pronunciations more or less as in French? - as with confêe - stress on 2nd syllable? Isn't it the same thing as pâté? Or are only canards allowed in it? Boulevardier also 2nd syllable stressed presumably. Lavaliere is in neither my French or English dictionaries, but Wikipedia has it. The dictionaries can't have everything, poor dears. Ro Thorpe 10:55, 17 March 2008 (CDT)

French WP doesn't have lavaliere - but it looks French (I've checked it's not Italian) - from a proper noun, presumably. Ro Thorpe 11:26, 17 March 2008 (CDT)

'Merkin confit has the stress on the first syl. -- it's CON-fee. In volume two of my Larousse Universel, on page 29 there are brief entries for Louise de la Baum le Blance La Valliere and Eugenie Fenoglio Lavalliere. Then on the next page, an entry for "lavalliere (va-li) n. f. (de Mme de La Valliere), Sorte de noeud de cravate. (On ecrit parfois LA VALLIERE) Adjectiv, Maroquin lavalliere, maroquin couleur feuille-mort." My 'Merkin M-W 11th says: "lavaliere also lavalliere bla bla (1906): a pendant on a fine chain that is worn as a necklace" There's also another entry for lavalier microphone. What about bouleversement -- that's a word in the dictionary that my gardener, say, doesn't use all that much.... Hayford Peirce 11:42, 17 March 2008 (CDT)

OK, so that's another 3 for you to put in, & another 3 for me to guess the pronunciations wrong. Yes, the French one is just the little Collins I used at school, and the Oxford I inherited from an English teacher in Guimarães who died of epilepsy aged 31: actually his mother let the school have all his books, so I 'borrowed' it. In fact I don't think I paid a penny for any of my dictionaries: the German & Italian ones are presents from girlfriends. Ro Thorpe 12:59, 17 March 2008 (CDT)

I'm guessing that lavalier and its various spellings is pronounced la (as in lab) uh LEER. (Geez, more!) Right below these words are: "lavabo" and "lavage", which reminds me of "douche". Will it never end? As for the other word, I'm struggling with my dictionary, but it *seems* to be bool verse suh ment. Who knows...?

Except that it's not spelt like 'cavalier'. Still, it's a wiki & we can be corrected. So an Anglopron for bouleversement? As for douche, that gives me louche. And touché... Ro Thorpe 13:40, 17 March 2008 (CDT)

The 'cavalier/chevalier' pronunciation as always gotten me. Is 'chevrolet' pronounced 'cab-rolet'? I always just call 'em Chevys, and therefore assumed 'chev-rolet' but then I saw an ad for it, and am so confused.

And while I'm pinching words from song lyrics, we ought go crying at the discotheque. Added concierge and coup d'état, your mileage may vary on both.Louise Valmoria 17:16, 17 March 2008 (CDT)

I dunno about "chevalier" except how to say it in French, but as a certified 'Merkin, I know that Chevrolet is *always* pronounced Shev-row-lay, with the accent slightly on the first syl. Hayford Peirce 17:20, 17 March 2008 (CDT)

Curaçao & titchy dictionerry

My Concise Oxford has 'f. Fr. Curaçao, name of Caribbean island producing these oranges'. However, the WP article on the island suggests it may be a corruption of the Portuguese coração - well, obviously I like that. More research needed. Ro Thorpe 16:47, 17 March 2008 (CDT)

I think it's a question of the Great Concise Oxford nodding in this one example. I just looked it up in the Ultimate Authority, the old Second Edition Merriam-Websters International Unabridged. There is says that the name derives from the Dutch island of Curacao, complete with squiggle, and that it is a drink made mostly in Amsterdam. I just walked downstairs to take a look at my own bottle of the stuff but I musta drunk it -- all I could find were Grand Marnier and Cointreau, both French, and both essentially indistinguishable from Curacao. I did look it up, however, in my thick "Food Lover's Companion" and it says only that it is made from bitter oranges found on the island of Curacao. So I think the Oxford is giving you a false reading here. I don't find any evidence in any source pointing it towards France in any way whatsoever. Well, let's see what the extremely chauvin "Larousse Universel" has to say....In its entirety: "n. m. (du n. d'une des Antilles), Liqueur faite avec des ecorces des oranges ameres, du sucre et de l'eau-de-vie: le curacao de Hollande est le plus repute." As far as I'm concerned, that's absolutely conclusive -- it's from the name of a Dutch island.... Hayford Peirce 17:36, 17 March 2008 (CDT)

Indeed, & what greater authority than French Wikipedia? 'De nombreuses théories tentent de trouver l'origine du nom de Curaçao. La plus probable est que les Espagnols aient appelés l'île Corazon (cœur). Les cartographes portugais auraient ensuite retranscrit le nom en portugais: Curaçau ou Curaçao.' Portuguese corruption of French [Spanish - I'm oozing français] name of Dutch island. Eat yer heart out, Oxferd! Ro Thorpe 18:12, 17 March 2008 (CDT)

I don't care a hoot about the origin of the wretched name as long as I can use the liquid product (in moderation, of course, hehe). What I do care about is accuracy -- as long as it isn't included in this article as a French word, then curacao lovers can do it in the street and frighten the horses for all I care....Hayford Peirce 21:00, 17 March 2008 (CDT)

Eau! Eau! he muttered, Now we're in trouble

Which one do you mean? Eau-de-vie? Hayford Peirce 14:40, 18 March 2008 (CDT)

Ah, an edit conflict. Yes, that one. I forget what the others were. I was saying, though, why don't you do a leetle stub on Curaçao since you actually consume the stuff? We could include the linguistic mystery. Perhaps you should get some in though, first. Ro Thorpe 14:46, 18 March 2008 (CDT)

Lemme see what a bottle costs these days. I've got Cointreau, which I never use, Grand Marnier, which I never use, and a lot of triple sec, which I use all the time in my rum drinks. C. and GM are just expensive variations of triple sec, which is a process. Curacao is just an expensive triple sec. But maybe I could do a stub, as you say. I guess I could also start making G.M. soufflees -- they're awfully good....Hayford Peirce 15:12, 18 March 2008 (CDT)

Eau K, have fun! Ro Thorpe 15:42, 18 March 2008 (CDT)

Renifleur

Sniffer? Never seen that in English. Gotta sauce? (He said in his British accent.) Ro Thorpe 19:14, 23 March 2008 (CDT)

Check this one, myte:[1] Hayford Peirce 20:37, 23 March 2008 (CDT)

C'est ça. French-style pron? Ro Thorpe 14:39, 24 March 2008 (CDT)

I gotta say that in a life un peu mouvemente I have never, to my knowledge, run across a dedicated sniffer in *any* language. So I have no idea. Lemme see if the invaluable M-W 11th has anything.... Nope. I can't find an online source that gives a pron. either. If I had to guess, in English it would be rer-(as in her)-niff-ler, with the stress on the second. But that's just a guess.... Hayford Peirce 17:49, 24 March 2008 (CDT)

I'd heard of neither the word nor the predisposition, but then I'm very innocent. So you favo(u)r rəníflə(r)? En français approximé, rənì-flə(r), or stressed on the first, Jennifer the réniflə(r). Perhaps it depends on the person, & we should put in all three... Ro Thorpe 18:56, 24 March 2008 (CDT)

A menage a trois with a frottage-iste, a renifleur, and a je ne sais quoi? Would probably be fun! Or, more likely, a folie a trois....

de luxury of saying deluxe or de luxe

I was a little surprised, although not completely bouleversé-ed to see that my majestrial 1935 M-W Unabridged has it "de luxe". So it's probably a word like "baseball", which started out as "base ball", became "base-ball" for a long while, then, around 1930 finally became, once and for all, "baseball". I can't locate my 1965 Oxford Concise, and I don't have the strength of character to find the magnifying glass for the big OED.... Hayford Peirce 18:53, 27 March 2008 (CDT)

Yes, like email. When I first came across it, it was two words, but I'm not sure of the context: cars? cigarettes? But by the punk era there were bands (groups, then) with Deluxe in the name, Ducks Deluxe being the first time I realised there was an anglicised pronunciation. Ro Thorpe 19:20, 27 March 2008 (CDT)

fete

I don't understand this one. My M-W 11th calls a fete a "FESTIVAL or lavish often outdoor entertainment; a large, elaborate party." There's also the verb: "to honor or commemorate with a fete; to pay high honor to"; and, while we're at it, how about fete champetre (with appropriate accents) -- M-W calls it "an outdoor entertainment" (let's not confuse it with fetish, hehe) Hayford Peirce 00:03, 2 April 2008 (CDT)

Yes, nice one. Ro Thorpe 10:18, 2 April 2008 (CDT)

Agree that fete is a festival. Usually a small village affair including flower show, a coconut shy, a few sack races and of course the firm favourite of wellie boot throwing. Where I grew up May 1st was the date for one with another at harvest time. Chris Day 00:11, 2 April 2008 (CDT)

Yeah, I agree that it has many meanings. I was just querying the definition that said garden -- let's just redefine things. Hayford Peirce 00:27, 2 April 2008 (CDT)

I agree it is not used in English for garden, that I've ever heard at least. Chris Day 00:50, 2 April 2008 (CDT)

Those italicised words are not definitions, they are association words to evoke meaning, and garden fete is a frequent collocation. However, in view of the misunderstanding, it'd better be changed to festival, perhaps. Ro Thorpe 10:01, 2 April 2008 (CDT)

Ah, now I get the point. But you're right, in view of our misunderstanding garden might not be the best word to clarify. Chris Day 10:24, 2 April 2008 (CDT)

Chapeau

Never heard it in English, but one of my dictionaries has chapeau-bras. Anyway, the search in the other one led me to 'chaperon'. Ro Thorpe 10:18, 2 April 2008 (CDT)

Never hoid of it, nor has my M-W 11th. In their Foreign Words section, however, they do have:

• c'est la guerre
• c'est la vie
• chacun a son gout
• chateau en Espagne
• cherchez la femme
• comedie humaine
• comme ci, comme ca

along with a bunch of others in the Cs that I think are more obscure.... Hayford Peirce 11:25, 2 April 2008 (CDT)

French/Saxon

For me the most interesting thing in English is how we have Saxon and French words that mean the same thing but in English are used quite differently. For example, mutton/sheep, beef/cow and pork/pig. One, it explains why english can have multiple words associated with specific animals compared to other languages. Second, it points to the class origins of the words. French being the cooked form of the meat while saxon being the animal. Presumably this had to do with the saxon serfs being in daily contact with the animals whereas the serfs only heard the french equivalent in the context of the cooked meat? Anyone know? Chris Day 10:32, 2 April 2008 (CDT)

Yes, that is exactly right. We could have those words in a new section: Different words for animals and meat, perhaps. It certainly wouldn't be appropriate to put them alongside the others, as they are considerably anglicised. Ro Thorpe 10:41, 2 April 2008 (CDT)

I was not suggesting to put them in the table, I was just rambling, inspired by the topic at hand. Word origins and the evolution of language is fascinating. Chris Day 10:46, 2 April 2008 (CDT)

I'm not suggesting you were suggesting! But it would be good to have them in. Ro Thorpe 10:50, 2 April 2008 (CDT)

I was not suggesting you were suggesting i suggested moving them to the table. ;) Chris Day 11:04, 2 April 2008 (CDT)

Logic of list?

hors d'oeuvre, oeuvre, bidet, aperitif, crochet, gateaux

.. where do you stop though? I understood that most of our words are French in origin?Gareth Leng 11:12, 2 April 2008 (CDT)

Thanks for those. The logic is explained in the intro to the list. French words are only one of the extra elements in English, which is a Germanic language, more closely related to German, Dutch, Swedish, etc. Ro Thorpe 11:24, 2 April 2008 (CDT)