View source for Talk:Theoretical biology

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==Article start==
Starting independent article on 'theoretical biology'. Original page had no content, only a redirect to [[Mathematical biology]].  Methinks [[Theoretical biology]] encompasses more than [[Mathematical biology]] and warrants an independent article. --[[User:Anthony.Sebastian|Anthony.Sebastian]] 23:15, 1 October 2008 (CDT)

== Formatting ==

Please remove the spaces that precede footnotes.  In proper style, there should be no such spaces. --[[User:Larry Sanger|Larry Sanger]] 14:46, 12 October 2008 (UTC)

:I removed all the spaces preceding footnotes. --[[User:Anthony.Sebastian|Anthony.Sebastian]] 22:00, 12 October 2008 (UTC)

:Larry, regarding your remark that the inventor of <nowiki><blockquote></blockquote></nowiki> needs to brush up re whether to italicize indented blockquotes: In the Intro, I show an alternate form of blockquote, sans italics, font-size slightly larger than the miniscule one used by standard blockquote, and bolded. Any objections using that format throughout? --[[User:Anthony.Sebastian|Anthony.Sebastian]] 22:00, 12 October 2008 (UTC)

::[[User:Tom Morris|Tom Morris]] might object. --[[User:Anthony.Sebastian|Anthony.Sebastian]] 22:00, 12 October 2008 (UTC)

:::I most certainly will, and in the strongest possible terms. I removed all that formatting crapola from the article - it looks silly. If the ''Citizendium'' doesn't look right, it shouldn't be fixed by adding custom HTML to specific articles, but by getting the tech people to change the stylesheet globally. On the Web, it is good practice to follow the [http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Separation_of_presentation_and_content separation of presentation and content]. This applies here. Blockquotes (marked with a blockquote element or not) should look consistent across the whole article. We just write the material for the pages - the style is site-wide. There's aboslutely no reason why the block quotes should be dark blue and larger on [[Theoretical biology]] and nowhere else. Consistency and content/style separation are important. --[[User:Tom Morris|Tom Morris]] 22:33, 12 October 2008 (UTC)

::::Tom, I respect you for your interest, and for your strong feelings about consistency. I regret our disagreement on this 'blockquote' issue. I, too, have a great interest in the quality of CZ, in respect of both content and presentation. I support the idea of consistency of presentation ''within articles'' and certainly a foundation of consistency ''among articles''.  In the case of [[Theoretical biology]], Larry has already asked for consistency in eliminating spaces preceding footnote designators, and clearly he intends that to apply 'among articles'.  In addition, he has commented to the effect that the <nowiki><blockquote></blockquote></nowiki> function lacks quality, specifically that it italicizes an indented blockquote whereas it should not. I agree.  But I submit that the <nowiki><blockquote></blockquote></nowiki> function also lacks quality in virtue of its reduced font-size, which deemphasizes the quote when we put it in to emphasize a point.  I agree the font-size of the blockquote needn't equal that of the font-size of the main text, and think a 10-15% reduction sufficient to help set it off from the main text, which the right-and-left indentations also help do.  Bolding seems appropriate, and a little color can only help the emphasis.  For long blockquotes, I like [[User:Gareth Leng|Gareth Leng's]] idea of putting them in text boxes.

::::I do not advocate that every CZ article utilize my attempt in [[Theoretical biology]] at improving the presentation of blockquotes, though I do advocate consistency within the article.  CZ still calls itself 'beta', so honest attempts to make changes do not seem inappropriate.

::::Thank you again for your earnest thoughts.  I hope others will weigh in. --[[User:Anthony.Sebastian|Anthony.Sebastian]] 01:05, 13 October 2008 (UTC)

I am puzzled.  Why aren't we simply using : for indented quotations?  If there are very, very long quotations, using special box format might make sense.  But standard style as explained e.g. in the Chicago Manual of Style (if I am remembering correctly) is to indent them, use the same font size, no italics, no bold.

And, Tom--typography is never worth "the strongest possible terms." :-) --[[User:Larry Sanger|Larry Sanger]] 10:43, 13 October 2008 (UTC)

: The strongest possible terms that the context allows, then. --[[User:Tom Morris|Tom Morris]] 12:51, 13 October 2008 (UTC)

Larry, if we use ''':''' for indented quotations, we get left indent only. Personally, I prefer left-and-right indent as the <nowiki><blockquote></blockquote></nowiki> function gives. I use a slightly smaller font-size than main text, because bolding makes font-size appear larger; I prefer bold to emphasize the quote. I have used a similar format in numerous articles that I initiated and developed &mdash; planning to go back to them and remove italics &mdash; with no comments except [[User:Gareth Leng|Gareth Leng's]] idea of putting long quotes and excerpts in text boxes, to which I agree.

Larry, I suggest we allow some blockquote flexibility 'among articles', but ask for consistency 'within articles'. (We do that for citation styles.) Standards for blockquotes: left-and-right indent; no italics; font-fize equal to or only slightly smaller than main text.  Bolding for emphasis optional, with consistency within articles. My HTML code is trivial and could be posted in CZ:Blockquotes. --[[User:Anthony.Sebastian|Anthony.Sebastian]] 19:46, 13 October 2008 (UTC)

: If you think that left-and-right indent is preferable, we should change that at the stylesheet level. We spend years advocating for CSS, so that if, say, we decide that we don't like how blockquotes look, we can change one file on the server and the whole site changes. 'Within article' consistency is no consistency at all. It's a recipe for anarchy, and is completely insane. --[[User:Tom Morris|Tom Morris]] 19:51, 13 October 2008 (UTC)

== Regarding blockquotes ==

All: Please review the format of the blockquote in the Introduction. I propose to render all the blockquotes in this article with the same format. Please weigh in, and offer any suggestions you might have. I outlined my thoughts on this in the Talk item preceding this. --[[User:Anthony.Sebastian|Anthony.Sebastian]] 01:04, 13 October 2008 (UTC)

:That's not how it works. There is absolutely no reason why quotes should be dark blue and bold on [[Theoretical biology]] and on ''no other article''. If you want to change how quotes look, you need to argue for it on a ''general'' basis, and get the agreement of the community, and have it changed at the stylesheet level. If you want to show different ways that you think quotes should look, mock them up in your User space, not on a public article then ask the community for feedback. Also, if you look at the markup, the way you've done it is very much ''not'' how it should be done. –[[User:Tom Morris|Tom Morris]] 19:28, 13 October 2008 (UTC)

::I agree with you, Tom, but could you please calm down a little?  :-)  It seems you're upset.  Please don't be.  Anthony is an extremely reasonable guy, maybe reasonable to a fault if that's possible! --[[User:Larry Sanger|Larry Sanger]] 20:18, 13 October 2008 (UTC)

I'd like to hear from other Citizens here.  I'm inclined to think we should have a uniform standard about block quotations. --[[User:Larry Sanger|Larry Sanger]] 20:25, 13 October 2008 (UTC)



== Some comments ==

I assume Derek Harkness coded how the current Quotes look, i.e. italicised and smaller font.  I kind of like how they currently look, although the size might be a little on the small side.

I don't recall how Gareth used the boxes exactly, possibly on the [[Life#Evolutionary_aspects_of_.27living.27|Life]]'''*''' article with respect to the Origin of Species section in yellow? Some quotes are mentioned tangentially in the text and in those instances a box, expecially for long quotes, might be useful. '''*'''''<small>Tom, don't look at that page and blow a gasket :)</small>''

For consistency I do agree we need to decide what we are going to do and code them in a CSS stylesheet.  [[User:Chris Day|Chris Day]] 20:30, 13 October 2008 (UTC)

:Let's have consistency in the quality of the writing and content. Let's have a consensual foundation of consistency among articles. Let's have limited flexibility in presentation.  --[[User:Anthony.Sebastian|Anthony.Sebastian]] 01:20, 14 October 2008 (UTC)

::The approach you are taking is inflexible and totally unacceptable. If you look at the markup given by these silly blue things, they are far less accessible for people with disabilities. Quotes should be in a 'q' or 'blockquote' tag in the HTML. This is why we have a distinction between wiki syntax and the underlying markup it generates. If you wish to change the way blockquotes are rendered, you need to argue for it on a site-wide level. –[[User:Tom Morris|Tom Morris]] 09:08, 14 October 2008 (UTC)

:::Tom, there is no need to get aggressive over this issue.  Just explain your rationale. This discussion has barely started I don't understand why you can't lead with calm reasoning? [[User:Chris Day|Chris Day]] 15:31, 14 October 2008 (UTC)

::::Tom, regarding the markup given by “these silly things”, presumably referring to my blockquotes, as far less accessible to people with disability, I feel certain we can teach or render the markup so as to make it quite accessible, as we have many CZers with the talent to do that. You surely recognize that many MediaWiki markups qualify as quite difficult even for people without disabilities.

::::By the way, I myself work as a productive author, editor and innovator on CZ despite my condition as a quadriplegic requiring mouthstick keyboarding, voice recognition software, 24/7 mechanical ventilation, though you may have had in mind other kinds of disabilities.  Anyway, the “silly blue things”, presumably referring to my blockquotes, no longer appear in [[Theoretical biology]], though the quotes do not stand out in any way except for the indents &mdash; not a partuclarly desirable state of affairs, in my opinion.  A little color can remedy that, and I will continue to explore font-colors to seek an optimal one, perhaps one even you might find acceptable and not meritorious of invective.  After all, we use blue for wiki-links, dark blue for disclaimers, and other colors for special things (e.g., maroon for wiki-links to empty pages).

::::I will continue to explore blockquote formats in the hope of coming up with one that seems generally acceptable.  Thank you for your continuing interest.  --[[User:Anthony.Sebastian|Anthony.Sebastian]] 17:40, 14 October 2008 (UTC)

:::::I don't think I'm being particularly aggressive. I'm stating my opinion in the same way that I would in a technical mailing list or at a conference or whatever. The font colours are not the issue. The issue is that quotes should be the same markup and the same style across the whole wiki. It shouldn't be that they are rendered as blockquotes on all articles except this one, where they are rendered as indented paragraphs with an inline style attribute. One of the premises of good markup practice is that of the semantic meaning of attributes - the markup should describe the meaning of the page, while the stylesheet makes it look a particular way.

:::::Again, I'm not opposed to innovative proposals - in fact, I'm all for us creating a distinctive style for the site. Look at the discussion we had over the colour of links to non-existent articles on the forum - the discussion happened in the forum, with people putting up pages in their user space to show different possible colours. We didn't just decide: I know, I don't like the colour of these links, so I'll go and change them on this article - the red faction going and changing this article and the green faction going off to change another article. As I said, unless you have a consistent side-wide style, you end up with anarchy. And you can't do proper cross-browser testing, because each article messes around with the site style.

:::::The accessibility concerns I was referring to were specifically screen readers which use the blockquote and q elements in HTML to 'off-set' the voice, so that blind users can distinguish between quotations and body text. Having something which is a quote and not putting it in the relevant element for that means that people cannot make such distinctions. --[[User:Tom Morris|Tom Morris]] 17:52, 14 October 2008 (UTC)

Actually, on further reading, I'd like to apologise for my rude tone. I do get irritated by these types of matters quite quickly. Again, I apologise for being overbearing and aggressive in tone. --[[User:Tom Morris|Tom Morris]] 18:09, 14 October 2008 (UTC)

Thanks, Tom, though no apologies needed. Will start a forum topic, as Matt suggests. --[[User:Anthony.Sebastian|Anthony.Sebastian]] 16:46, 15 October 2008 (UTC)

== Constable comment ==

Tom, thanks for offering the fig leaf.  May I suggest, as you have already, that this become a discussion on the forums.  While it is certainly a "style" issue that falls within the realm of editorial decision-making, my concern is that it is worked on [[CZ:Professionalism|professionally]].  As our EIC has already checked in and asked for more input, how about moving the discussion to the forums and perhaps even using this article as the "trial and error" page.  Otherwise, do remember that these articles are works in progress, so expect things to change daily. Feel free to contact me if necessary. [[User:D. Matt Innis|D. Matt Innis]] 01:59, 15 October 2008 (UTC)

:Thanks, Matt. I started a forum topic on the subject in 'Content issues > Article policy > Blockquote format'. --[[User:Anthony.Sebastian|Anthony.Sebastian]] 17:47, 15 October 2008 (UTC)

== new blockquote format for [[Theoretical biology]] ==

From the forum, I changed the blockquote format in [[Theoretical biology]] to one that received some approbation.  It seems neat, has no italics, indents distinctly left-and-right, same font-size as main text (1.0em), though 'appearing' slightly smaller, and sets off from the main text with a font that appears slightly but not obstrusively different.

Codes as follows:

<nowiki>

<blockquote>
<p style="margin-left: 2%; margin-right: 5%; font-size: 1.0em; font-family: Trebuchet MS;">BlockquoteText<ref>xx</ref></p>
</blockquote>

</nowiki>

Looks good to me. Though I wouldn't mind a little color. --[[User:Anthony.Sebastian|Anthony.Sebastian]] 00:18, 22 October 2008 (UTC)