User talk:Thomas Mandel

Tasks: start a new article • add basic, wanted or requested articles • add definitions • add metadata • edit new pages

Welcome to the Citizendium! We hope you will contribute boldly and well. Here are pointers for a quick start, and see Getting Started for other helpful "startup" links, our help system and CZ:Home for the top menu of community pages. You can test out editing in the sandbox if you'd like. If you need help to get going, the forum is one option. That's also where we discuss policy and proposals. You can ask any user or the editors for help, too. Just put a note on their "talk" page. Again, welcome and have fun!

-- Sarah Tuttle 18:16, 18 May 2007 (CDT)

Complementary

Thomas, we are looking -as a group- to make this a great on-line encyclopedia. We have fun, but it is serious fun. When I pointed out that the article DNA has been nominated for approval, and suggested that this was not the appropriate time for a novice to try his hand at editing something he didn't know much about, but that putting down questions and explaining what you might like to know that is not there , I meant in a scholarly fashion, such that your aim would be to try to help make that article of higher quality, not that this would be the appropriate place to muse or ask us to muse. Your question is a philosophical one that I have moved here, we are in a more directed mode in that article.We need to get it into shape and there really is no time for such tangential considerations. Speaking of time, I again had to revert one of your edits, because the protein coat of pneumococcus is a major factor in enabling the bacteria to infect organisms, and you wrote that it has no role in the infection.This is not helpful, please do ot make edits in an article nominated for approval in s areas you are not familiar with, we do not want to miss such a major mistake.

• In regards to Binary theory 'a la Salk, or pairs holding pairs- I answer 'a la Lennon: One and One and One Makes Three. :-)

In systems thinking, we would say that 1+1=3 If you count all the elements of the equation

systems theory

I got your e-mail about approval for Systems theory. As Approvals Editor do not approve articles. An editor in a workgroup that your article falls into would have to nominate it for approval. At this time, it is a very broad article, I myself am not familiar with "Systems Theory". I see that it includes Systems biology and many other things, like education. Is this a recognized discipline? Could you give us a reference that recognizes "System theory" as a science that includes all the fields as you have presented it? Although your article has many references, they are not tied in with the text. Even if you can't do numbered footnote references (I can't, I admit) put them in parentheses and they can be formatted later. Put the workgroups that you think the article falls under in categories. Look at another article that has workgroups on its edit page to see how to write the code.This will help find the editors that can approve it and once you do, I will help you contact them. If however, the connection between all fields with the basic idea of systems is original, you may have a problem, and the article may have to be broken up into its respective recognized discilines. Nancy Sculerati 03:52, 10 June 2007 (CDT)

Very interesting comment about the connection between all fields of a basic system. While that is exactly what the systems movement is all about, to research and bring together those ideas

common to various disciplines so that they do not have to be constantly reinvented, and often misrepresented by individuals, it is clear that systems theory as it actually exists is not generally known. Is this in part doe to some encyclopedias which presuppose that popularity means validity? Every single discipline without exception began as a minority view. It can be argured that even today every discipline with the one exception of mathematics is practiced by a minority of scientists.Thomas Mandel

I got your e-mail about approval for Systems theory. As Approvals Editor do not approve articles.

I didn't mean to ask for approval, just wanted to know what it entailed.

An editor in a workgroup that your article falls into would have to nominate it for approval. At this time, it is a very broad article, I myself am not familiar with "Systems Theory". I see that it includes Systems biology and many other things, like education. Is this a recognized discipline?

May I suggest that you refer to my work at http://isss.org/projects/doku.php?id=wiki:primer and to answer your question

Could you give us a reference that recognizes "System theory" as a science that includes all the fields as you have presented it?

please see the page http://isss.org/world/ at the bottom

Interesting. Hi Thomas. I am a CZ Constable just checking out recent developments. I went to the article url above, was redirected to "general_orientation" and found a menu of conference dates but no articles per se. What should I be looking for relative to the article here under discussion? --Thomas Simmons 18:58, 11 June 2007 (CDT)

That website is under construction. What you are looking for is near the end of the home page - written by Kyoichi Kijima, ISSS President, 2006-2007. If you are serious about learning what we are about look at [1]Thomas Mandel 20:29, 11 June 2007 (CDT)

On second thought, here is his first paragraph -- The 51st annual meeting of the International Society for the Systems Sciences (ISSS) marks the beginning of another half-century history of interdisciplinary collaboration and synthesis of systems sciences. The ISSS is unique among systems-oriented institutions in terms of the breadth of its scope, bringing together scholars and practitioners from academic, business, government, and non-profit organizations. Based on fifty years of tremendous interdisciplinary research from the scientific study of complex systems to interactive approaches in management and community development, the 51st annual meeting of the ISSS intends to promote systems sciences as a holistic and integrated scientific enterprise."

Although your article has many references, they are not tied in with the text. Even if you can't do numbered footnote references (I can't, I admit) put them in parentheses and they can be formatted later.

Thank you for the tip

Put the workgroups that you think the article falls under in categories. Look at another article that has workgroups on its edit page to see how to write the code.This will help find the editors that can approve it and once you do, I will help you contact them.

I will do that when I think I am finished. Right now I just started a few days ago.

If however, the connection between all fields with the basic idea of systems is original, you may have a problem, and the article may have to be broken up into its respective recognized discilines.

No it is not original so that is not a problem. The problem is that many if not most scientists have not studied systems theory.

Systems theory is a field of inquiry concerning all disciplines which study how things work together (Original).

Thomas Mandel 13:11, 10 June 2007 (CDT) Nancy Sculerati 03:52, 10 June 2007 (CDT)

Workgroups are uually put in at the atart or at least midpoint of an article. Are yoy referring me to the same private organization's website becasue there is no reference available from the recognized major peer reviewed journals in the English language in the scientific literature? Essays publihed on the web are not considered scholarly resources here, especially if they are the only or major references. At this point your article heavily promotes the ebsite that you contribute to and does not meet the scholarship required for an encyclopedic article. Please spend some time reading the requirements for citizendium articles. Nancy Sculerati 13:49, 10 June 2007 (CDT)

(Thomas Mandel's reply follows.)

Member Organizations of the International Federation for Systems Research (IFSR)

American society for Cybernetics

Asociation Argentins de Teria General de Sistemas y Cibernetica

Asociation Latinamericana de Sistemas

Asociation Mexicana de la Ciencias de Systemas

Asociation Mexicana de Systemas y Cibernetica

Association Francaise de Science des Systemes Cybernnetiques

Australian and New Zealand Systems Group

Bulgarian Society for Systems Research

Centre for Hypercursion and Anticipation in Ordered Systems

Cybernetics Society

Deutsche Gesellschaft fur Kybernetik

Gesellschaft fur Wirtschaft und Sozialkybernetik

Globl Institute of Flexible Systems

Greek Systems Society

Hellenic Society for System Studies

Institute Andino de Sistemas

International Society for the Systems Sciences

International Society of knowledge and System Science

Internatiohnal Systems Institute

Italian Association for Research on Systems

Japan association for Social and Economic Syst3em Studies

Korean Society for Systems Science Research

Learned Society of Praxiology

Management Science Society of Ireland

Polish Systems Society

Slovendian Society for Systems Research

Sociedad Espanola se Systemas Generales

Systems Enineering Society

Systemgroep Nederland

United Kingdom Systems Society

From Systems Research and Behavioral Science ISSN 1099-1743 Wiley Interscience

Hmmm, if it isn't made in America, does that mean it isn't science? I hope that I do not regret being honest with you. --Thomas Mandel

There are English language peer reviewed scientific articles in the major journals written by authoirs in all those countries. I do not have more time to spend here Thomas, the organizations are irrelevant to the requirement here on CZ to use scholarly resources unless these are unavailable. Your author message from Sarah includes a link on how to get started as an author, please read it and the links on policy that connect to it. Nancy Sculerati 15:36, 10 June 2007 (CDT)

I thought that the authors here would be friendly and helpful, but after a tremendous amount of work, which is only days old, I want to cry. Why? Do you have a peer reviewed journal article that proves only peer reviewed journal article are acceptable sources of information? Why do you presuppose that I made all this up? How can you judge an article about that which you are not familair with? How many peer reviewed journal articles are introductions for the general public? Why should I have to dig out information from approved journal articles when I can go right to the person who said it? And what is more impoortant, what is being said or who is saying it? Finally, how does one go about accessing these journal articles? PS In our science we are taught to "sweep in" as opposed to the conventional science approach of "exclude out." Could be we are manifesting the division between ingtegrative science and objectified science... If so, well, some sort of system put me here...ISSS is a group of hundreds, thousands, of Phd's from various contries and who meet each year and present their findings to date. ISSS was SGSR, the original society from which the systems movement emerged as a science. I am the founder of their website, as well as the chair/facilator of the Primer Project. What do you mean by "I am promoting "? What I am promoting is the information which even you haven't heard of before. Surely you know of Rapaport?[2] I cited our journal, that's enough. Anyway. thanks for your time, I learned a lot. Thomas Mandel 17:25, 10 June 2007 (CDT)

Why, because the article thoroughly bespeaks of self-promotion. It'd be nice to know what others besides advocates say, don't you think? Stephen Ewen 20:33, 10 June 2007 (CDT)

Oh boy, I've been here less than a week and already I am in trouble...I think that if I wanted to know what someone was doing, I would ask those who are doing it what they are doing. I certainly wouldn't ask those who are unfamilair with what "someone else is doing" for that insight.

I don't know what you mean by "self-promotion" can you be more specific? You have this quote -- "habits of thought, reading, writing, and speaking which go beneath surface meaning, first impressions, dominant myths, official pronouncements, traditional cliches, received wisdom, and mere opinions, to understand the deep meaning, root causes, social context, ideology, and personal consequences of any action, event, object, process, organization, experience, text, subject matter, policy, mass media, or discourse."

Is it wrong to try and do that?

Not at all. That's the point. See the article talk page for more. Stephen Ewen 04:30, 11 June 2007

Thomas, I've restored some of Nancy Sculerati's comments above, to retain the integrity of the exchange. Please do not edit other people's talk page comments. --Larry Sanger 08:48, 11 June 2007 (CDT)

Thanks Larry, I only did that to stick to the real work. I made a huge mistake trying to butt in on something I know only a little about (DNA) Although they did keep my edits about complementarity.Thomas Mandel 20:29, 11 June 2007 (CDT)

Hi Thomas. Just a note to say that while all this discussion takes place (in some cases you seem to be getting frustrated), we are enthused that people will put in so much time and effort. So, please take these responses and comments in the spirit they are given--we want to build a good encyclopedia and quite frankly, systems theory is out there and has a legitimate place here. It is complex subject and getting someone who will write this is a boon. We just want to impress upon you that we do have guidelines. Please do not loose patience. Simple things at this point like citations in the text, reference to juried journals, the whole lot, are not too much to ask for a respected topic. Meanwhile, folks understand that it is a work in progress. One last point, the format that Larry referred to, the quote and comment format that is so typical in email (which is here used as interspersed comments), is not at all workable here. It is not unlike writing in capital letters all the time or standing your chopsticks upright in your rice bowl (in Japan)--it is a cultural thing. Anyway, thanks very much for the effort once again. --Thomas Simmons 21:00, 12 June 2007 (CDT)

I do not mind the rigor. What troubles me is when others not familair with the subject somehow stiil find a way to demean it.

I didn't expect that to happen at CitiZendium. However, I am glad that it happened because I discovered one reason why systems theory is not well known by all scientists. If you go to the CitiZendium article Systems Biology you will read all about systems theory as it is being used in biology. But there will be only one reference to systems theory, not even a reference but a quote from Karl Ludwig von Bertalanffy. ( why Karl?) Now, If someone did in fact discover and develop and apply those systems ideas described in the systems biology article independantly, I would love to know who he or she is. On the other hand, could it be that someone didn't do his homework? Well, Larry or someone wants criticism in systems theory, so, does that apply to systems biology? And no, I have no intentions of going there and knock down another hornets nest...And if ethics is a consideration, it would be one mighty big nest.

Thanks for your letter, I was thinking that CitiZendium shoud have someone whose job it is is to be nice to the authors, and right then I got your letter. Thomas Mandel

Self-Promotion

In my role as facilitator of the Primer project, I believed that it would necessary to reflect the multi-perspectual aspect of systems theory by incorporating all the thoughts of the various players. I didn't think that one person could/should tell the whole story. At the same time, it is necessary to realize the core principles which are found throughout the "uni-versity." Here, our goal is similar, except the players include everyone. Personally, I have no knotted ties to any organization or person. I figured out what a system does by myself 22 years before I discovered the international community of systemists. I am partial to ISSS because it is the founding society, the first one to recognize systemics as a science. That is to say, ISSS has historical significance.

So, I think what is desired of me here is to be transparent more than neutral Thomas Mandel 01:40, 16 June 2007 (CDT)

I don't know if you noticed

I don't know if you noticed, but I was actually trying to defend you. Your response was to lash out, make a snide commnent about "gatekeepers" and then insult me. That's not a very good way to garner support for your article. You might even find that there are many scientists and scholars who agree with you in significant ways, but you do need to look beyond the words and pay a bit more attention to their intent. Greg Woodhouse 19:04, 18 June 2007 (CDT)