Talk:Welcome to Citizendium: Difference between revisions

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Created [[/Archive 1/]], 10:09, 30 May 2009 (UTC) — [[User:Caesar Schinas|Caesar Schinas]]
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| style="padding: 0.25em;"|'''Archive 1, 5-30-09:''' [[User_talk:Welcome_to_Citizendium/Archive1]] by [[User:Caesar Schinas|Caesar Schinas]]
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| style="padding: 0.25em;"|'''Archive 2, 8-14-13:''' [[User_talk:Welcome_to_Citizendium/Archive2]] by [[User:Pat_Palmer|Pat Palmer]]
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| style="padding: 0.25em;"|'''Archive 3, 3-3-21:''' [[User_talk:Welcome_to_Citizendium/Archive3]] by [[User:Pat_Palmer|Pat Palmer]]
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| style="padding: 0.25em;"|'''Archive 4, date?''' [[User_talk:Welcome_to_Citizendium/Archive4]]
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| style="padding: 0.25em;"|'''Archive 5, date?''' [[User_talk:Welcome_to_Citizendium/Archive5]]
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==Why I revised the front page intro a few days ago==
== Links we may need after June 2020 ==
I revised the front page intro substantially a few days so thought I should explain my rationale.  The former verbiage was seeming sort of like a business that had been around a while yet still rather oddly had its "Grand Opening!" sign up front.  That sort of sign works to draw in new customers for a while, but there is another group who will still only drive by and not come in. They want to know "we're still here and we're a growing business who is here to stay, so it's a really good to come in now."  It's flowing with a seemingly natural cycle, I suppose.  At any rate, that was what I tried to do. [[User:Stephen Ewen|Stephen Ewen]] 06:30, 29 May 2009 (UTC)
* [[:Category:Articles to Approve|articles nominated for approval]] ([[User talk:Pat Palmer|talk]])


== Slight redesign ==
== Site Design ==


I don't like the current layout of the main page; it's too cluttered at the top and it looks silly having the logo twice.<br />
Not really sure if this is the best place to address this. Have you considered changing the site design though? It's hard to see material from an encyclopedic standpoint with the site zoomed in like it is, first of all. Kind of dizzying I think to try reading when everything is zoomed in. The gray background looks pretty bad also. --[[User:Joshua Zambrano|Joshua Zambrano]] 18:54, 28 March 2014 (UTC)
I'd like to change it to something like [[User:Caesar_Schinas/Welcome_to_Citizendium|this]] or [[User:Caesar_Schinas/Welcome_to_Citizendium_2|this]] (sorry about the long header, if you have a low-resolution screen) - what does anyone think of the idea?<br />
:Zoomed in? You mean everything is in close-up? You can change that, and the grey background too. I'll see if I can remember how... [[User:Ro Thorpe|Ro Thorpe]] 19:13, 28 March 2014 (UTC)
[[User:Caesar Schinas|Caesar Schinas]] 11:08, 30 May 2009 (UTC)
:You can click on 'my preferences' at the top of the page and experiment. [[User:Ro Thorpe|Ro Thorpe]] 19:16, 28 March 2014 (UTC)
::The default skin is Pinkwich5, which has a greyish background and enlarged font. The skin I prefer using is Monobook. I'm not a fan of Pinkwich5. The previous arguments in the forum of being seen to be different from everyone else and unique has not worked in attracting new users. Let's call a spade a spade - Pinkwich5 is garish and detracts from the overall aesthetic of the website. [[User:Meg Ireland|Meg Ireland]] 03:56, 29 March 2014 (UTC)


:I decided to [[CZ:Be Bold|be bold]]. If people don't like this, we can revert. [[User:Caesar Schinas|Caesar Schinas]] 15:11, 30 May 2009 (UTC)
Speaking of site design, what would it take to make Citizendium resize on mobile devices? [[User:Richard Nevell|Richard Nevell]] ([[User talk:Richard Nevell|talk]]) 22:39, 2 September 2018 (UTC)
:See [http://en.citizendium.org/wiki?title=Welcome_to_Citizendium&oldid=100499115 here] for the old version. [[User:Caesar Schinas|Caesar Schinas]] 15:18, 30 May 2009 (UTC)


::I prefer the new version over the old one and think we should go ahead with the redesign - for instance, I like the drop image very much but find it out of place here: adding water to the ocean probably isn't too appropriate an image for an attempt to ''structure'' anything, and be it knowledge. --[[User:Daniel Mietchen|Daniel Mietchen]] 00:00, 31 May 2009 (UTC)
:Richard, I very much agree that making the site mobile friendly is important.  I suspect that our best bet of doing that is for our technical gurus to manage to upgrade the Mediawiki software.  This is a daunting challenge, however, since at this point, each layer of software from the OS to the web server to the database to the Mediawiki software is now many versions out of date, beside which there are many customizations which have been made, in the past, specifically for Citizendium.  They are working on it, and may indeed accomplish it, but such an upgrade will inevitably include some kind of rough waters. So--as of late August 2020, I would say there is hope it will get done, but I cannot say what the timeframe will be, since everyone is an unpaid volunteer and the matters are so tricky.  Do know, however, that the software upgrades are in the works which should get Citizendium to be more mobile friendly.[[User:Pat Palmer|Pat Palmer]] ([[User talk:Pat Palmer|talk]]) 10:48, 28 August 2020 (UTC)


:::Yes, an improvement, and yes, exit the drop. [[User:Ro Thorpe|Ro Thorpe]] 00:16, 31 May 2009 (UTC)
== Removing link to article about Citizendium until/unless it can get updated ==
This was in the bullet list in the lower right:
* See our [[Citizendium|article on ourselves]].
It needs to be revamped and updated.  New contributors could be seriously confused by reading it.  So, I'm now about to remove it from the landing page pending its revision.  Then, we can hopefully return it.[[User:Pat Palmer|Pat Palmer]] ([[User talk:Pat Palmer|talk]]) 23:29, 18 August 2020 (UTC)


::::I agree, the drop should go. A nice pic, but not the message we want to send. How about a pic of a *VAST* reading room, such as the LOC or whatever it is in London, or the Bodelian, or whatnot, a *enormous* repository of knowledge? Old-fashioned, sure, and not hip, but appropriate.... [[User:Hayford Peirce|Hayford Peirce]] 02:42, 31 May 2009 (UTC)
== Added "We strive for objectivity" ==
Since The Citizendium no longer enforces what formerly was called Neutrality, I've added "[[CZ:Objectivity_Guidance|We strive for objectivity]].", a short personal essay of my own, to the lower right on the landing page. I hope it won't displease you.[[User:Pat Palmer|Pat Palmer]] ([[User talk:Pat Palmer|talk]]) 22:41, 18 August 2020 (UTC)


:::::When I worked at LOC, there was a very popular cartoon from the ''New Yorker'', with a crowd, pointing Superman-style to a lone figure in the Main Reading Room, shouting "Look! It's a Congressman!"
== Stashing removed bullet item here (from lower left) ==
Archiving this here after removing it from main page because the information appears in upper right in a different format
* We have [[:Category:CZ Live|{{PAGESINCAT:CZ Live}}]] articles at different stages of [[CZ:Group Editing|development]], of which [[:Category:Citable versions of articles|{{PAGESINCAT:Citable versions of articles}}]] have expert-[[CZ:Approval Announcements|approved]] [[CZ:Citable Version|citable versions]]. 
<!--* Our  [[:Category:Approved Articles|{{PAGESINCAT:Approved Articles}} expert-approved articles]] are '''reliable''' and of '''world-class quality''', rivaling the best printed encyclopedias.-->


::::::Hehe. [[User:Hayford Peirce|Hayford Peirce]] 04:17, 31 May 2009 (UTC)
== Stashing the Monthly Donation Day link here (no longer helpful) ==
Archiving this link here after removing it from the landing page because it is so old and not being maintained, nor likely to be.
* [[CZ:Monthly Donation Day|Monthly Donation Day]]&nbsp;&nbsp;'''|'''


:::::You don't know what vast means, however, until you get accidentally locked in the stacks and the lights are turned out. Trust me. [[User:Howard C. Berkowitz|Howard C. Berkowitz]] 02:45, 31 May 2009 (UTC)
== Physics Forums link on landing page ==
I have added a link to [http://www.physicsforums.com/ Physics Forums] on the landing page (at the bottom of the bullet list).  This is due to a deal with the Physics Forum owner, Greg Bernhardt.  He doesn't normally allow his site to be used for any kind of solicitation, but in this case, if we link to him, I'll be allowed to solicit for physics experts over there to check out writing in Citizendium.  This mutual linking is a new thing; if you know other social/technical forums where we might be able to work out a similar understanding, let's try it![[User:Pat Palmer|Pat Palmer]] ([[User talk:Pat Palmer|talk]]) 23:45, 29 August 2020 (UTC)
:Worth giving a go! [[User:Richard Nevell|Richard Nevell]] ([[User talk:Richard Nevell|talk]]) 22:13, 30 August 2020 (UTC)


::::::You should read the wonderful 1951-ish novel by [[Michael Innes]] called either [[Operation Pax]] or [[The Paper Thunderbolt]], where the climatic scene is set in the 30-story-deep underground stacks of the Bodelian.... (imaginary, he says, in a note) [[User:Hayford Peirce|Hayford Peirce]] 04:15, 31 May 2009 (UTC)
== Why Citizendium? needs updating; anybody? ==
* See also ''[[CZ:Why Citizendium?|Why Citizendium?]]''
** I've archived the above link from the landing page until someone updates it.  It's still got all the stuff about Editors which is not being done in practice now (and may never return). Anyone want to revise it to fit current times?  (Being nice, of course; we are not in competition with Wikipedia).[[User:Pat Palmer|Pat Palmer]] ([[User talk:Pat Palmer|talk]]) 23:49, 29 August 2020 (UTC)


:I like the drop, but perhaps as you say it's not appropriate. It's not very noticeable down at the bottom of the page, anyway. [[User:Caesar Schinas|Caesar Schinas]] 06:26, 31 May 2009 (UTC)
==old server==


::I've added code to make the quotation change every month, and added a few more quotations... Not sure if we want them to start again after a year, but it's a start.
old server temporarily available at http://208.100.31.41/  [[User:George Swan|George Swan]] ([[User talk:George Swan|talk]]) 12:54, 28 March 2022 (CDT)
::Best not to get rid of the drop until images are working again. [[User:Caesar Schinas|Caesar Schinas]] 07:31, 31 May 2009 (UTC)
: As stated in the [[Forum_Talk:Technical_Issues|Forum]], the OLD server is at https://czold.org/ until May 20 of this year.  Note that the old server has a pink SiteNotice on every page.  The IP address you had is for the new server, and that is a bad way to go it. Go in to the new server at https://citizendium.org/. Please only post on this page if it is about ''this'' page, or something linked to it. [[User:Pat Palmer|Pat Palmer]] ([[User talk:Pat Palmer|talk]]) 16:30, 28 March 2022 (CDT)


== Server restarted ==


There was some bad RAM in one of our main servers, and it was just replaced.  Glad I was around when the server went down, so I could get the Steadfast people on the case.  But now (I observe) the images are not showing up.  Well...we'll see what's going on there, I don't know when the images will be showing up, but by tomorrow AM I hope. --[[User:Larry Sanger|Larry Sanger]] 06:21, 31 May 2009 (UTC)
==archiving this link ==
In case we want it again someday: [[CZ:More_information_for_Physics_Forums_Members]], I'll leave this link here.  However, PF did not do its part in publicizing Citizendium, so I'm removing their link from the main page. [[User:Pat Palmer|Pat Palmer]] ([[User talk:Pat Palmer|talk]]) 07:37, 25 April 2022 (CDT)


:I'd just been going to ask if something was wrong with all the images or if it was just me...
== Panel ==
:When is "tomorrow AM"? How about a GMT time?
:[[User:Caesar Schinas|Caesar Schinas]] 06:25, 31 May 2009 (UTC)


::I don't live on GMT, I live on Eastern Standard.  That is 4 or 5 hours behind GMT, depending on time of year...you can do the math, I trust. :-) --[[User:Larry Sanger|Larry Sanger]] 01:48, 1 June 2009 (UTC)
headed "Some our finest" should mention Ready category. [[User:Peter Jackson|Peter Jackson]] ([[User talk:Peter Jackson|talk]]) 04:38, 31 May 2022 (CDT)
 
:::Yes, I can understand that. It's hard for us non-US-people to get our heads around the fact that you have so many different timezones...
:::Perhaps we should make it a rule that everyone puts their timezone on their userpage? I know ''some'' Citizens already do.
:::[[User:Caesar Schinas|Caesar Schinas]] 06:16, 1 June 2009 (UTC)
 
No idea about the time zones, but I don't see the images either. [[User:Aleksander Stos|Aleksander Stos]] 07:12, 31 May 2009 (UTC)
 
== Splitting out AOTW and NDOTW ==
 
I've moved the Article of the Week and the New Draft of the Week to [[CZ:Article of the Week/current]] and [[CZ:New Draft of the Week/current]], respectiveyl, and transcluded them onto this page so that this page doesn't have to be edited every time those are updated. [[User:Caesar Schinas|Caesar Schinas]] 07:44, 31 May 2009 (UTC)
 
== Pictures ==
 
I don't see the pictures on the main page, not with FireFox, Google Chrome nor IE8--[[User:Paul Wormer|Paul Wormer]] 08:56, 31 May 2009 (UTC)
PS: All picture stuff (including LaTex) is screwed up right now.--[[User:Paul Wormer|Paul Wormer]] 08:58, 31 May 2009 (UTC)
 
:Larry is aware of this - see above - but I don't know if anything is being done about it. [[User:Caesar Schinas|Caesar Schinas]] 09:03, 31 May 2009 (UTC)
 
:Pictures are appearing for me, as of 13:37 GMT. [[User:Anton Sweeney|Anton Sweeney]] 12:39, 1 June 2009 (UTC)
 
::They actually started working again some time before 12:30 GMT yesterday. [[User:Caesar Schinas|Caesar Schinas]] 13:20, 1 June 2009 (UTC)
 
== Update ==
 
Well, RAM on the server that was chronically crashing was replaced last night (almost 24 hours ago now).  It is possible that bad RAM was the cause of the chronic crashing.  If so, we shouldn't see crashes nearly as regularly.  Fingers crossed! --[[User:Larry Sanger|Larry Sanger]] 01:50, 1 June 2009 (UTC)
 
== Quotations ==
 
I've altered the code slightly so that a pseudo-random quotation is displayed on every page load, though in practice it won't be quite ''every'' time due to caching.<br />
There are currently 12 quotations - should we have more?<br />
If anyone adds more, they'll have to change the randomisation code slightly; it needs to know how many quotes there are.<br />
[[User:Caesar Schinas|Caesar Schinas]] 16:51, 1 June 2009 (UTC)
 
: Caesar, exactly how do I change the code if I add a quotation?
: The best quotations, IMHO, the ones that encourage people to write/edit.
: [[User:Anthony.Sebastian|Anthony.Sebastian]] 02:43, 9 June 2009 (UTC)
 
== Logo ==
 
Who else think that [http://img171.imageshack.us/img171/4907/czproposed.png this] looks much better than [http://img151.imageshack.us/img151/6696/czcurrent.png this]? [[User:Caesar Schinas|Caesar Schinas]] 08:23, 2 June 2009 (UTC)
 
:I do.  The background needs to be transparent, I think.  I use the default skin, and there's an ugly white box around the logo. [[User:Anton Sweeney|Anton Sweeney]] 09:36, 2 June 2009 (UTC)
 
::Unfortunately, this can only be changed by someone who can change the files on the server; it's not a setting which can be changed on the wiki. [[User:Caesar Schinas|Caesar Schinas]] 10:25, 2 June 2009 (UTC)
 
::If, by the "default skin", you mean MonoBook... well, it's not the default skin. Pinkwich5, in my screenshots, is. [[User:Caesar Schinas|Caesar Schinas]] 16:15, 3 June 2009 (UTC)
 
:I do, too. --[[User:Daniel Mietchen|Daniel Mietchen]] 16:31, 3 June 2009 (UTC)
 
== What ''are'' we called? ==
 
Looks like we need to decide what our name is. On this page there are at least three different names... We have<br />
'''Welcome to Citizendium'''<br />
'''Write for the ''Citizendium'''''<br />
'''Why Citizendium?'''<br />
'''''Citizendium'' may be different...'''<br />
So which should we use? I think Larry has said in the past that it's '''the ''Citizendium''''', but it's not that way in the logo.<br />
If it is that, this page should be renamed '''Welcome to the Citizendium'''. (No italics in the pagename...)<br />
[[User:Caesar Schinas|Caesar Schinas]] 15:04, 2 June 2009 (UTC)
 
And what about Eduzendium? I guess it would have to be '''the ''Eduzendium'''''. [[User:Caesar Schinas|Caesar Schinas]] 15:06, 2 June 2009 (UTC)
 
== Random citations ==
 
I like this feature very much and wonder whether we should use a similar switch to randomly display one of the approved articles. To ensure proper formatting, we may need a dedicated subpage specific to each approved version, or at least an "includeonly" or "onlyinclude" section in the article itself. I just gave "onlyinclude" a [http://en.citizendium.org/wiki?title=User%3ADaniel_Mietchen&diff=100506954&oldid=100503679 try] with some non-trivial formatting: <nowiki>{{User:Daniel Mietchen}}</nowiki> now gives <!--{{User:Daniel Mietchen}}-->
Such a procedure now also facilitates, via {{tl|Winner}}, the formatting of suitable parts of an article for inclusion into the Welcome page as the [[CZ:Article of the Week]] or [[CZ:New Draft of the Week]].
--[[User:Daniel Mietchen|Daniel Mietchen]] 04:00, 7 June 2009 (UTC)
 
:You mean just show a random approved article instead on the AOTW? Perhaps... but a lot of our AOTWs '''aren't''' approved articles at present. [[User:Caesar Schinas|Caesar Schinas]] 06:35, 7 June 2009 (UTC)
 
::Daniel, I've commented your userpage inclusion above out, since it was slowing down page loading due to the number of videos. [[User:Caesar Schinas|Caesar Schinas]] 08:08, 9 June 2009 (UTC)
 
:::Commenting it out now is fine - it was just the first demo. What I have in mind is to have the approved articles there ''in addition'' to the AOTW/NDOTW display, though I wouldn't be against alternating the display of the latter two in the same place. However, the space on the left is not effectively used at present. --[[User:Daniel Mietchen|Daniel Mietchen]] 22:18, 9 June 2009 (UTC)
 
== Is this quote relevant? ==
The latest quote, added by [[USer:Anthony.Sebastian]], reads as follows:
{{Quotation|...the time had arrived for writing, the painful process, as the neuroscientist Susan Hockfield so pointedly put it, of transforming three-dimensional, parallel-processed experience into two-dimensional, linear narrative.|Natalie Angier, The Canon: A Whirligig Tour of the Beautiful Basics of Science}}
Is this relevant to creating a compentium of knowledge? All of our other quotes refer to knowledge directly. Also, this is rather longer than the others, though I don't know if that matters. Opinions?<br />
[[User:Caesar Schinas|Caesar Schinas]] 08:06, 9 June 2009 (UTC)
 
:With all due respect to Anthony, it is an interesting quote, but it is not about knowledge as noted by Caesar.[[User:Milton Beychok|Milton Beychok]] 04:58, 10 June 2009 (UTC)
 
::By writing, one feeds minds knowledge.  In my opinion, the rotating quotes should encourage readers to share their knowledge, by writing for CZ.  I'll try to remedy the offending quote by searching for Susan Hockfield's orginal, the guts of the quote.  [[User:Anthony.Sebastian|Anthony.Sebastian]] 03:49, 18 June 2009 (UTC)
 
:::I have now re-cast the offending quote, removing Natalie Angier´s quote-within-a-quote, simply quoting neuroscientist Susan Hockfield directly, thereby shortening the submission.
 
:::The relevance of the rotating quotes depends on the goal of the quotes.  When I initiated the feature, I intended the quotes to encourage visitors to the Welcome Page to join CZ, and share their knowledge through the writing/editing process.
 
:::The Hockfield quote I believe will challenge some readers to write, in order to see if they can transform three-dimensional, paralleled-processed experience into two-dimensional, linear narrative.
 
:::The quote itself indicates how an apposite sequence of words can convey a unique, insightful thought &mdash; part of the challenge to the prospective writer.
 
:::I consider it more relevant than some of the other quotes in the series. [[User:Anthony.Sebastian|Anthony.Sebastian]] 22:01, 20 June 2009 (UTC)
 
::::I still don't like it - it's not really relevant to creating a compendium of knowledge, and also it's not a proper sentence. But whatever - leave it if you disagree. [[User:Caesar Schinas|Caesar Schinas]] 12:48, 21 June 2009 (UTC)
 
:::::I would offer that to create a compendium of knowledge, one must write, that is, transform three-dimensional, paralleled-processed experience into two-dimensional, linear narrative. Still, since you seem strongly to dislike the quote, I'll muse a while then probably remove it.  --[[User:Anthony.Sebastian|Anthony.Sebastian]] 23:07, 21 June 2009 (UTC)
 
::::::No, I don't mind if you want to keep it; I just personally think it's somewhat less relevant than most of the other quotes. [[User:Caesar Schinas|Caesar Schinas]] 06:53, 22 June 2009 (UTC)
 
== love the new front page! ==
 
I think it looks great!!! [[User:Tom Kelly|Tom Kelly]] 00:45, 17 June 2009 (UTC)
 
Thanks! [[User:Caesar Schinas|Caesar Schinas]] 12:45, 21 June 2009 (UTC)
 
== Shouldn't "article/draft of the week" have titles? ==
 
Because its title (Ancient Celtic music) isn't displayed, it's difficult to figure out at first what the current article of the week is about. It begins: "The ancient Celts had a distinct culture, which is shown by their very sophisticated art work. The Hallstatt culture and especially the later La Tène culture are characterized by a high aesthetic level...." Three links, all red, but no mention of music until later in that second sentence. [[User:Bruce M. Tindall|Bruce M. Tindall]] 20:08, 19 June 2009 (UTC)
:Yes, and it has now &mdash; see [http://en.citizendium.org/wiki?title=CZ_Talk%3AArticle_of_the_Week&diff=100516539&oldid=100511176 here]. --[[User:Daniel Mietchen|Daniel Mietchen]] 20:41, 19 June 2009 (UTC)
 
== In the News ==
 
The main page format looks pretty messed up on IE now that "In the News" has been added. It also probably shouldn't be above the blurbs about what Citizendium is and how to join. Perhaps it can go somewhere in the column containing the article and new draft of the week? [[User:Shamira Gelbman|Shamira Gelbman]] 22:22, 26 July 2009 (UTC)
:Wow, I apologize. I am usually pretty good about remembering to check the display on other browsers. That completely slipped my mind this time. I'll get right on that.[[User:Drew R. Smith|Drew R. Smith]] 22:49, 26 July 2009 (UTC)
::Just checked IE8, Opera, and Google Chrome, and it looks fine on all of them. Which version of IE are you using?
 
::I actually tried to put it elswhere, but couldn't get it to format properly. Instead of being just below the last section on the left it ended up positioned just below the NDOTW but on the left side. From what I can see on my browser the blurbs are still visible below the "In The News" section, so anyone who wants to read it can just scroll down.[[User:Drew R. Smith|Drew R. Smith]] 22:59, 26 July 2009 (UTC)
 
:::My impression had been that we were going to see how this worked as a page; immediately putting it on the Welcome page, I think, should have more of a consensus among Citizens before we put it on our front door. [[User:Howard C. Berkowitz|Howard C. Berkowitz]] 23:19, 26 July 2009 (UTC)
 
:::: This computer's got IE 7.0.5730.11. The news section nearly completely dominates my screen and adds a huge amount of white space to the box with the "natural sciences," "social sciences," etc. links. In any case, I agree with Howard; I don't think this belongs on the welcome page unless and until there's more general agreement that it's a worthwhile feature to include there. [[User:Shamira Gelbman|Shamira Gelbman]] 00:35, 27 July 2009 (UTC)
 
:::: Edited to add: I just checked on IE 8 and it looks just as bad as it did in the older version. [[User:Shamira Gelbman|Shamira Gelbman]] 02:53, 27 July 2009 (UTC)
 
:::::I agree that we need to have a discussion about what we want before we post it.  The welcome page is already awfully cluttered; something will have to go.  I'm not necessarily saying the news section doesn't belong because it seems like a very nice innovation if it is kept up to date.  I just think we should be timid about making major changes to our main page.  --[[User:Joe Quick|Joe Quick]] 02:32, 27 July 2009 (UTC)
 
::::::My apologies if I was a little too forward. I was under the impression that adding it to the main page was part of the trial run. In any case, if we want it taken down, by all means do it.
 
::::::Shamira, what skin are you using? It looked fine to me in IE8 on both pinkwich and monobook. Perhaps you could take a screenshot of the problems you are seeing?[[User:Drew R. Smith|Drew R. Smith]] 09:00, 27 July 2009 (UTC)
 
:::::::I posted a screenshot in the forums. [[User:Shamira Gelbman|Shamira Gelbman]] 14:05, 27 July 2009 (UTC)
 
===Demo version of [[CZ:News]]===
I moved the news section from the welcome page to here. --[[User:Daniel Mietchen|Daniel Mietchen]] 09:45, 27 July 2009 (UTC)
{{CZ:News}}
 
== Some Changes ==
 
I have transcluded some portions of the mainpage that do not need to be physically located on the main page. The sections are now located at [[CZ:Navbar]] and [[CZ:Quote]]. This also allows anyone who wants either of the elements on their userpages to easily add it. This was done in an attempt to reduce the size of the mainpage and navigation time to the mainpage. [[User:Drew R. Smith|Drew R. Smith]] 06:57, 25 August 2009 (UTC)
 
:One other thing. How does the quote thing actually work? I thought it was supposed to change every hour, but it seems to change every time I navigate back to the mainpage. Is this a bug, or is this intentional? [[User:Drew R. Smith|Drew R. Smith]] 06:59, 25 August 2009 (UTC)
::This is intended. --[[User:Daniel Mietchen|Daniel Mietchen]] 07:01, 25 August 2009 (UTC)
 
:::Huh. I had always been under the impression that it was supposed to change every hour. Why the constant changing? [[User:Drew R. Smith|Drew R. Smith]] 07:28, 25 August 2009 (UTC)
 
:::: Shouldn't CZ:Navbar rather be moved to Template: ? (I confess: I never noticed how often the quote changes.) [[User:Peter Schmitt|Peter Schmitt]] 09:09, 25 August 2009 (UTC)
 
:::::Actually they both ''should'' be moved to the template namespace. Before I move both (I'm going to move navbar now) is there any reason you singled out navbar? I guess what I'm really wondering is, should we leave CZ:Quote as is? [[User:Drew R. Smith|Drew R. Smith]] 09:40, 25 August 2009 (UTC)
:::::: I didn't mention CZ:Quote because it could (or even should) be edited by adding more quotes once in a while. They are transcluded content rather than a template. [[User:Peter Schmitt|Peter Schmitt]] 10:57, 25 August 2009 (UTC)
 
:::::::Ok, makes sense. [[User:Drew R. Smith|Drew R. Smith]] 10:58, 25 August 2009 (UTC)
 
== Article of the Week should be an approved article? ==
 
It was my understanding (gained from, well, somewhere) that the article of the week was to be an approved article. This week's article, ''[[Locality of reference]]'', is not approved. If there is no existing requirement that the article of the week be an approved article, perhaps we should consider making it so, in order to consistently show our best work?
 
Or perhaps I'm missing something?&mdash;[[User:Thomas H. Larsen|Thomas H. Larsen]] 04:34, 17 December 2009 (UTC) <small>It's quite possible. I'm rather tired.</small>
 
:I'm not sure it ever had to be an approved article. I think one argument against this would be that without sufficient editors some excellent articles are not approved. Would we want to preclude those?  Another argument is that an article on the home page will showcase articles close to approval and this might be enough to get some interest in pushing it over the top.  In general, we need to be careful to establish rules that only make sense in a '''very''' active community. [[User:Chris Day|Chris Day]] 05:10, 17 December 2009 (UTC)
 
:: I can see your points, but, on the other hand, if approved articles are supposed to be one of the Citizendium's "shining jewels" it would seem to be logical to display one on the welcome page. The current system seems to be more Wikipedia-like in nature (authors and editors vote on whether an article appears to meet the necessary standards); there's not necessarily anything ''wrong'', per se, with this style of selecting high-quality articles, but it runs counter to Citizendium tradition. :-) [[User:Thomas H. Larsen|Thomas H. Larsen]] 05:35, 17 December 2009 (UTC)
 
:I think that once we hit a few articles being approved a week, then we should put approved articles only as AOTW. Until then, developed articles are fine. –[[User:Tom Morris|Tom Morris]] 06:28, 17 December 2009 (UTC)
 
== how long have these 2 articles been on the main page? ==
 
? [[User:Tom Kelly|Tom Kelly]] 18:22, 26 February 2010 (UTC)
:Too long. See also [http://forum.citizendium.org/index.php/topic,3010.0.html this forum thread]. --[[User:Daniel Mietchen|Daniel Mietchen]] 22:14, 26 February 2010 (UTC)
 
== Call for illustrations ==
 
I just reverted [http://en.citizendium.org/wiki?title=Welcome_to_Citizendium&diff=100680152&oldid=100677568 this edit], since I think the Welcome Page (primarily aimed at outsiders) is the wrong place to put a prominent link to [[CZ:Illustration wanted]]. --[[User:Daniel Mietchen|Daniel Mietchen]] 00:13, 19 June 2010 (UTC)
 
== Nomenclature ==
 
Is it "Citizendium" (as in the intro) or "the Citizendium" in a later section?  The latter makes me cringe.  Would say "the Encyclopedia Brittanica"?  Or "the Newsweek"? I didn't try to edit this page since I would expect it to be protected, and also I am new here. [[User:Huw Powell|Huw Powell]] 03:36, 15 November 2010 (UTC)
 
:Oh, dearie me... Yes, i know. Well, I tried to get a consensus to drop the definite article when we were struggling with the charter, but failed. So, some people write "The Citizendium" and others not... There are countries with the same problem -- most notably, "The Netherlands" which many people write as Netherlands... [[User:Martin Baldwin-Edwards|Martin Baldwin-Edwards]] 03:44, 15 November 2010 (UTC)
 
:: "The Citizendium" means "The Citizens' Compendium". It would be incorrect (or at least very awkward) to say, "Write at Citizen's Compendium," so probably one should not say, "Write at Citizendium," either. [[User:Thomas H. Larsen|Thomas H. Larsen]] 05:22, 15 November 2010 (UTC)
 
::: "The Citizendium" was Larry's idea, I think for the reasons Thomas mentions. But it never really caught on, and most people do not use it, perhaps because 'Citizendium' has the same metre as 'Wikipedia', with which, for some reason, it is sometimes compared. [[User:Ro Thorpe|Ro Thorpe]] 14:42, 15 November 2010 (UTC)
 
== Suggestion ==
 
I have to agree with Doctor Dark at Rashwick: "...the casual visitor would expect that the buttons labeled "Natural Sciences", "Arts" and the like would take them to portals or lists of articles under those headings. Ha! Tricked you, sucker! They go to organizational tables for workgroup structure and procedures." [[User:Ro Thorpe|Ro Thorpe]] 15:08, 23 December 2010 (UTC)
: Yes, fair point. I also agree that our section headings are much too large.[[User:Gareth Leng|Gareth Leng]] 16:38, 23 December 2010 (UTC)
 
::I've decided to drop them pending a rewrite of their contents (which I am alas not qualified to undertake), while moving the donations banner to the top to see how that looks (one of Milton's suggestions below). [[User:Ro Thorpe|Ro Thorpe]] 00:51, 1 January 2011 (UTC)
 
:::I think the donations banner is too prominent now and would prefer to keep it at the lower end of the page, or even to relocate it to the sidebar. --[[User:Daniel Mietchen|Daniel Mietchen]] 04:58, 1 January 2011 (UTC)
 
::::Daniel, relegating the donations banner to the sidebar will mean removing most of the text explaining that we still have an ongoing need for donations. About 30% of the donors to our donation drive were visitors to CZ (i.e., non-members), and relegating the banner to the bottom of the page means that many visitors might never see the donations banner. I think it is important that the donation banner be quite prominent on the Welcome page until such time as we have a permanent solution to our hosting costs and or until we find a major benefactor. [[User:Milton Beychok|Milton Beychok]] 06:39, 1 January 2011 (UTC)
 
:::::I still think the buttons' destinations should be changed. [[User:Ro Thorpe|Ro Thorpe]] 16:05, 1 January 2011 (UTC)
:::::Can/should this not be done? [[User:Ro Thorpe|Ro Thorpe]] 17:02, 13 January 2011 (UTC)
:::::Still no response, even while we're all looking at this page? I'd do it myself if I knew how. [[User:Ro Thorpe|Ro Thorpe]] 23:21, 13 January 2011 (UTC)
 
== The urgently needed donation drive has ended and exceeded our expectations. ==
 
The urgently needed donation drive raised $3,710, which is more than was expected and is enough to pay our hosting costs for about 9 months ... by which time we should have found a permanent hosting solution. I want to take this opportunity to thank everyone who made our donation drive a success.
 
Therefore, the banner urging donations has now been removed from all of the CZ pages and replaced by a single banner on the Welcome page.
 
Would the banner on the Welcome page perhaps be better placed at the top of the left-hand section (just above the '''An encyclopedia project—and more!''' section) ... or perhaps at the top of the right-hand section (just above the '''Article of the Week''') ?  Please offer your comments. [[User:Milton Beychok|Milton Beychok]] 20:04, 31 December 2010 (UTC)
==Added intro==
I added a longer intro at the TOP of the page for all to read. The previous intro had nothing telling what Citizendium was about. Feel free to add some keywords or to expand it. Keywords are important. I try to add them to my personal web pages. My kids have taught me well.[[User:Mary Ash|Mary Ash]] 16:56, 13 January 2011 (UTC)
:I'm going to add back academic based articles as that is what CZ wants. I did not write peer reviewed articles, although I could have written that in a way as editors do approve articles, what makes CZ different is the desire of high caliber academic articles. Not swill found at other sites. BTW my we want you was an attempt to make this plea a bit light hearted.[[User:Mary Ash|Mary Ash]] 18:09, 13 January 2011 (UTC)
 
::Fixed Mary's incorrect indentation. Also, I agree that Hayford's version of the page introduction is much better than Mary's version ... and I agree with his using "Author" and "Editor" rather than "author" and "editor". Mary, for once, please don't start a revert war or another messy confrontation. Just bow out gracefully and let it go. [[User:Milton Beychok|Milton Beychok]] 23:16, 13 January 2011 (UTC)
 
:::Hi to Mary:  I know you were going for 'a bit light hearted', I didn't care for it myself, but others might agree with you and not me, and that's fine.
:::Just to clarify: normally, you would be right about the Author->author issue, but in this sense, Hayford is distinguishing a particular CZ use of Editor and Author, so he's right to use capitals.  Make sense?
:::[[User:Aleta Curry|Aleta Curry]] 00:08, 14 January 2011 (UTC)
 
::::Light-heartedness in actual text, particularly the Main Page, is actually vandalism.  I have reported it formally to the Constabulary and asked that Mary be banned for vandalism and disruptive behavior. [[User:Hayford Peirce|Hayford Peirce]] 00:45, 14 January 2011 (UTC)
 
:::::I think you actually mean the continued reverts, not a mistake or a joke.  In this case, I think in the first instance Mary meant well. We can cut her some slack. [[User:Aleta Curry|Aleta Curry]] 01:08, 14 January 2011 (UTC)
((unindent))For all to read this is what I posted and Gareth later lightly edited by italicizing the light-hearted i.e. friendly statement. Truth be told I emailed this statement to Gareth before posting it and he knew about it. I read his forum comments and went here and posted my intro. Some how being friendly and inviting should not be a bannable offense.
 
My posting and Gareth's light editing below:
 
Welcome to Citizendium
From Citizendium, the Citizens' Compendium
(Difference between revisions)
Jump to: navigation, search
Revision as of 16:54, 13 January 2011 (edit)
Mary Ash (Talk | contribs)
(Added a welcome message as an intro. Hope this helps!)
← Previous diff
 
Welcome to Citizendium! Citizendium is an academically based tight-knit community that encourages high standards of writing through collaboration between editor and author. We welcome people from all walks of life who desire to share their knowledge and expertise freely by writing well researched articles. Please read through our easy registration procedures, that are designed to encourage high caliber articles, then register. Or to borrow a line from some military sources: We want you!
 
 
Revision as of 17:19, 13 January 2011 (edit) (undo)
Gareth Leng (Talk | contribs)
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Welcome to Citizendium! Citizendium is an academically based tight-knit community that encourages high standards of writing through collaboration between editors and authors. We welcome people from all walks of life who want to share their knowledge and expertise freely by writing well researched articles. Please read through our easy registration procedures, then join us. To borrow a line from some military sources: ''We want you!''
 
And the comment about being light-hearted i.e. was this statement:  Please read through our easy registration procedures, that are designed to encourage high caliber articles, then register. Or to borrow a line from some military sources: We want you!
 
The '''"We want you"''' was a play on words from the old military recruiting posters that said "Uncle Sam Wants You!".
 
I will let the Constables decide if this was offensive but I think not. I was trying to write a warm, inviting and friendly intro to a place I've tried to devote my efforts to help. I truly want to see the under dog aka Citizendium succeed. I strongly believe in competition whether it be in the business world or on the Internet. It's always good to have alternatives.[[User:Mary Ash|Mary Ash]] 01:14, 14 January 2011 (UTC)
 
== Constable comment ==
 
Hi All, the new intro looks good currently.  I see that it has taken a convoluted pathway to get here, but if that's what it takes, I suppose we'll consider it successful.  We are all authors on this page, so we'll have to work on the popular consensus model as a default method. Mary, you appear to have reverted what seems to be a popular consensus about Authors and Editors, so it looks like you've been out-numbered. Leave that as it is.  Don't take things so personally, nobody's words have been left untouched.  Professionalism still holds, so please avoid the harsh rhetoric in the edit summaries. I don't have Dark Knight rights on this wiki.  Most of all, have fun, ya'll, that's why we're here.  [[User:D. Matt Innis|D. Matt Innis]] 01:34, 14 January 2011 (UTC)
== Tight-knit and scholarly ==
The term tight-knight means small versus large as WP. Scholarly to mean academic which is what I originally wrote. Academic does not have the same connotations, I believe, as scholarly. CZ is aiming for academic quality articles. You could almost write peer reviewed articles as a series of editors actually act in the role as a panel to review them. Finally, the reverts made by me yesterday were NOT an actionable offense. I removed less than 20 words both times I tried to edit the article and I LEFT professional talk page messages stating my reasons for doing so. I also left edit page summaries in the page history. For now I will not add any edits as the intro looks pretty good. I do believe there should be something inserted about academic or peer reviewed articles so potential contributors know why CZ is different.[[User:Mary Ash|Mary Ash]] 15:09, 14 January 2011 (UTC)
 
:There's no offence involved here, it's just that you seemed to revert the same change, made by two different people, twice in swift succession. Your intentions were good, but the front page material is sensitive, and your double reversion triggered a brusque reponse that could have been phrased more gently. Let it pass; you shouldn't have reverted swiftly twice, you should have been treated more politely. We don't get everything right always.[[User:Gareth Leng|Gareth Leng]] 18:49, 14 January 2011 (UTC)
 
==Margins==
The left hand background has a very large bottom margin, which displaces the text to far down. Unfortunately I have no idea how to fix that.[[User:Gareth Leng|Gareth Leng]] 18:43, 14 January 2011 (UTC)
 
== Grammar question in ''Join us'' section ==
 
The following statement currently occurs in the ''Join us'' section:
 
:"You can discuss any articles on their Talk page."
 
Not being absolutely sure about the grammar and not wanting to make even a minor (and possibly incorrect) edit to the main page, I thought I'd ask: should this not read something like "You can discuss any of the articles on their respective Talk page" or maybe "You can discuss any article on its Talk page"?
 
Hope I'm not being too picky. :-)
 
[[User:James F. Perry|James F. Perry]] 18:16, 16 January 2011 (UTC)
 
:No, you're absolutely correct.  I'll fix it. [[User:Hayford Peirce|Hayford Peirce]] 18:58, 16 January 2011 (UTC)
 
::You also should have felt free to change it :)  [[User:D. Matt Innis|D. Matt Innis]] 19:01, 16 January 2011 (UTC)
 
== Colour of the donations box ==
 
Daniel, you reverted my edit of the donations box. Could you please explain how the page was broken? In my browser, Chrome/Webkit, it looks just fine. Also, all I did was to change some colour codes. I can't understand how that could cause an error. Regardless, it would be helpful if you described the error. Thanks. [[User:Johan A. Förberg|Johan A. Förberg]] 23:59, 31 January 2011 (UTC)
 
[[User_talk:Johan_A._Förberg#About_changing_the_color_of_the_Donation_request_on_the_Welcome_page|This conversation]] between Milton and myself is relevant here. [[User:Johan A. Förberg|Johan A. Förberg]] 23:59, 31 January 2011 (UTC)
 
:The Welcome page was inaccessible for a few minutes, and I temporarily reverted your last edit to see if that was the problem. It wasn't, so I went back to your last version, 5 min before you posted the comment above. [http://mail.citizendium.org/pipermail/cz-tech/2011-January/000094.html More details]. --[[User:Daniel Mietchen|Daniel Mietchen]] 01:55, 1 February 2011 (UTC)
 
 
==Why we contribute==
 
I added a link to [[CZ:Why_I_contribute_to_CZ]] on the main page. This is a nice collection of stories that doesn't seem to be linked to or accessible anywhere, you just have to kinda stumble upon it like I did. [[User:Eric Clevinger|Eric Clevinger]] 21:44, 14 March 2011 (UTC)
 
:Good idea, Eric, and your addition to it was refreshing as well!  Thanks! [[User:D. Matt Innis|D. Matt Innis]] 00:34, 15 March 2011 (UTC)
 
== Listening to music helps to edit ==
 
For extra boost when editing I recommend the Adams: Harmonielehre album.
 
*[http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=9P5JVAuKcGE Harmonielehre: Part I]
*[http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=oH3HQqEEz6U Harmonielehre: Part II. The Anfortas Wound]
*[http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=5ZLHvs5D58I Harmonielehre Part: III. Meister Eckhardt and Quackie]
*[http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=SGil-fBxuDM Tromba Lontana]
*[http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=7pRLyyFdDjg The Chairman Dances: Foxtrot for Orchestra]
([[User:Chunbum Park|Chunbum Park]] 23:36, 7 August 2011 (UTC))
 
== Arab Spring ==
 
There is now an updated and more readable version in place of the version shown.
 
Is an update possible? [[User:Nick Gardner|Nick Gardner]] 07:53, 30 October 2011 (UTC)
 
:Updated to the most recent version - unfortunately, the links to the addendum page(s) don't seem to work on the main page. [[User:Anton Sweeney|Anton Sweeney]] 21:34, 30 October 2011 (UTC)
 
==Please fix as soon as possible==
There is a spelling mistake (not mine) in the Featured Article. 'Parsemonious' should read 'parsimonious'. I would fix this (and have done so in the article itself), but I don't know how. (Something to do with transcluding, I think...) [[User:Ro Thorpe|Ro Thorpe]] 14:04, 14 November 2011 (UTC)
:Done. [[User:Ro Thorpe|Ro Thorpe]] 23:46, 15 November 2011 (UTC)
 
== Sister project? ==
 
[http://en.citizendium.org/wiki?title=Welcome_to_Citizendium&action=historysubmit&diff=100617280&oldid=100617273 This edit] more than two years ago added the current description of WatchKnow as CZ's "sister project". Do we actually have any relationship with them? I'm not aware of any. I do vaguely remember some talk that possibly CZ and WatchKnow might collaborate in some way, but that obviously came to nothing. Should this description be removed? Indeed, should we be mentioning WatchKnow on our front page at all? [[User:John Stephenson|John Stephenson]] 09:37, 2 April 2012 (UTC)
 
:It would be great if WatchKnow shared a link mentioning Citizendium as a sister project. But anyways since we are not getting funding from WatchKnow's donor I don't think we are sister projects after all. ([[User:Chunbum Park|Chunbum Park]] 13:46, 2 April 2012 (UTC))
 
::"should we be mentioning WatchKnow on our front page at all?" It's interesting to note that Wikinfo mentions Wikipedia, Citizendium and Knowino on its main page, in accordance with its philosophy of openness to all points of view. Worth thinking about? [[User:Peter Jackson|Peter Jackson]] 14:47, 2 April 2012 (UTC)

Latest revision as of 03:38, 31 May 2022

Archives
Archive 1, 5-30-09: User_talk:Welcome_to_Citizendium/Archive1 by Caesar Schinas
Archive 2, 8-14-13: User_talk:Welcome_to_Citizendium/Archive2 by Pat Palmer
Archive 3, 3-3-21: User_talk:Welcome_to_Citizendium/Archive3 by Pat Palmer

Links we may need after June 2020

Site Design

Not really sure if this is the best place to address this. Have you considered changing the site design though? It's hard to see material from an encyclopedic standpoint with the site zoomed in like it is, first of all. Kind of dizzying I think to try reading when everything is zoomed in. The gray background looks pretty bad also. --Joshua Zambrano 18:54, 28 March 2014 (UTC)

Zoomed in? You mean everything is in close-up? You can change that, and the grey background too. I'll see if I can remember how... Ro Thorpe 19:13, 28 March 2014 (UTC)
You can click on 'my preferences' at the top of the page and experiment. Ro Thorpe 19:16, 28 March 2014 (UTC)
The default skin is Pinkwich5, which has a greyish background and enlarged font. The skin I prefer using is Monobook. I'm not a fan of Pinkwich5. The previous arguments in the forum of being seen to be different from everyone else and unique has not worked in attracting new users. Let's call a spade a spade - Pinkwich5 is garish and detracts from the overall aesthetic of the website. Meg Ireland 03:56, 29 March 2014 (UTC)

Speaking of site design, what would it take to make Citizendium resize on mobile devices? Richard Nevell (talk) 22:39, 2 September 2018 (UTC)

Richard, I very much agree that making the site mobile friendly is important. I suspect that our best bet of doing that is for our technical gurus to manage to upgrade the Mediawiki software. This is a daunting challenge, however, since at this point, each layer of software from the OS to the web server to the database to the Mediawiki software is now many versions out of date, beside which there are many customizations which have been made, in the past, specifically for Citizendium. They are working on it, and may indeed accomplish it, but such an upgrade will inevitably include some kind of rough waters. So--as of late August 2020, I would say there is hope it will get done, but I cannot say what the timeframe will be, since everyone is an unpaid volunteer and the matters are so tricky. Do know, however, that the software upgrades are in the works which should get Citizendium to be more mobile friendly.Pat Palmer (talk) 10:48, 28 August 2020 (UTC)

Removing link to article about Citizendium until/unless it can get updated

This was in the bullet list in the lower right:

It needs to be revamped and updated. New contributors could be seriously confused by reading it. So, I'm now about to remove it from the landing page pending its revision. Then, we can hopefully return it.Pat Palmer (talk) 23:29, 18 August 2020 (UTC)

Added "We strive for objectivity"

Since The Citizendium no longer enforces what formerly was called Neutrality, I've added "We strive for objectivity.", a short personal essay of my own, to the lower right on the landing page. I hope it won't displease you.Pat Palmer (talk) 22:41, 18 August 2020 (UTC)

Stashing removed bullet item here (from lower left)

Archiving this here after removing it from main page because the information appears in upper right in a different format

Stashing the Monthly Donation Day link here (no longer helpful)

Archiving this link here after removing it from the landing page because it is so old and not being maintained, nor likely to be.

Physics Forums link on landing page

I have added a link to Physics Forums on the landing page (at the bottom of the bullet list). This is due to a deal with the Physics Forum owner, Greg Bernhardt. He doesn't normally allow his site to be used for any kind of solicitation, but in this case, if we link to him, I'll be allowed to solicit for physics experts over there to check out writing in Citizendium. This mutual linking is a new thing; if you know other social/technical forums where we might be able to work out a similar understanding, let's try it!Pat Palmer (talk) 23:45, 29 August 2020 (UTC)

Worth giving a go! Richard Nevell (talk) 22:13, 30 August 2020 (UTC)

Why Citizendium? needs updating; anybody?

  • See also Why Citizendium?
    • I've archived the above link from the landing page until someone updates it. It's still got all the stuff about Editors which is not being done in practice now (and may never return). Anyone want to revise it to fit current times? (Being nice, of course; we are not in competition with Wikipedia).Pat Palmer (talk) 23:49, 29 August 2020 (UTC)

old server

old server temporarily available at http://208.100.31.41/ George Swan (talk) 12:54, 28 March 2022 (CDT)

As stated in the Forum, the OLD server is at https://czold.org/ until May 20 of this year. Note that the old server has a pink SiteNotice on every page. The IP address you had is for the new server, and that is a bad way to go it. Go in to the new server at https://citizendium.org/. Please only post on this page if it is about this page, or something linked to it. Pat Palmer (talk) 16:30, 28 March 2022 (CDT)


archiving this link

In case we want it again someday: CZ:More_information_for_Physics_Forums_Members, I'll leave this link here. However, PF did not do its part in publicizing Citizendium, so I'm removing their link from the main page. Pat Palmer (talk) 07:37, 25 April 2022 (CDT)

Panel

headed "Some our finest" should mention Ready category. Peter Jackson (talk) 04:38, 31 May 2022 (CDT)

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